imperialscum said:

darth_ender said:

Nope, that's not what I am saying at all. I am saying that you hold moral values that you consider right. Do you know where those values came from? From society. And that society's values are descended from Judeo-Christian values. That's all I'm saying here.

And that is exactly what I was trying deny. You make it look like Judeo-Christianity is the foundation of the society itself (I apologise if that is only my impression). Yet it is just a small evolutionary piece. At some point it even completely opposed (indirectly though Church) many of the moral standards of modern western society. And it still continuous to oppose (indirectly though Church) some of moral standards of western society today. I mean you may try blame everything on the Church as an institution and say religion has nothing to with it. But I am a very practical person and cannot accept such excuse.

You are absolutely incorrect. Do some research. Two major components contributed tremendously to our culture: Judeo-Christian and Greco-Roman. To say otherwise reveals nothing but ignorance. I am speaking especially specifically about our morals. Look at the virtues of Far Eastern civilization. It is very different. A big part of that is because of their religion. Even atheist China still bears great influence from the values of Confucianism and Buddhism. You may disagree, but I'm sorry, you are wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_culture

darth_ender said:
Oh my gosh. You mean Christianity did all that? I didn't know. Gee

I did not say Christianity did that. I quite clearly said Church did that in the name of Christianity. But anyway that was not really relevant to this discussion. I just wanted to point out that religion directly or indirectly was a major amoral factor in Europe for a several centuries. There was a struggle to actually move the society away from that direction.

It still doesn't take away from the fact that I know more on that topic than you do, nor that such amoral actions represent the whole of the Catholic Church, Christianity, or religion in general. And as I pointed out, atheism is capable of just as much immorality and evil.