@imperialscum, I haven't interacted with you for some time, so to read this makes me wonder if you always missed the point so completely, or if this is a lone instance. I don't mean to be rude, but I think you were trying to reply to something between the lines, but didn't read the lines themselves. You reply to me like I am defending religion from your onslaught. I was not defending it at all. I intend to do so, but not here, and not now, since it will take a little longer to compose what I intend to write. If I were an atheist, my point in my previous comment would be identical. So please read my following reply, reread the previous comment, and understand what I really mean.
imperialscum said:
darth_ender said:
I am afraid that this is all a bunch of ignorance. I don't disagree that people who are without religion can still hold high moral standards. But bear in mind where those standards came from. Right now you are from the UK if I recall correctly. Your nation has been tremendously influenced by Judeo-Christian values. Let's say that the world was taken over by the Islamic State. Over time, societal norms conform to those accepted by what we now see as an evil group.
First, you are saying that one religion will protect us from the other, which is kind of a paradox in this discussion. So if it is the religion that may harm us in the first place, why don't we just get rid of all religions if they are the problem?
Nope, that's not what I am saying at all. I am saying that you hold moral values that you consider right. Do you know where those values came from? From society. And that society's values are descended from Judeo-Christian values. That's all I'm saying here.
darth_ender said:
In 100 years, a guy very much like you wishes to live a life with morals much like yours. Do you know what would happen? This man would be branded a heretic and executed for apostasy. You know why, because he would be living a life if immorality according to a different society, though his standards may be exactly like yours today. Lest you use this as an argument against religion due to the extremism of such Muslims, I do wish to point out that even atheistic societies like North Korea and the Soviet Union have adopted truly evil norms.
I hope that this was some kind of joke. You speak like Christianity gave us freedom and stuff. You better learn the history of Europe. The Church (in the name of Christianity) was exploiting people for centuries (it still does to a lesser degree). Funny how you mentioned "branding one a heretic" and executions in the name of religion. In medieval Europe, that was a very common practice of Church ... burning people alive, invention of unimaginably sick torture devices to extract the "confessions" out of "heretics", etc. The Church actively suppressed the freedom and sabotaged the secular progress in Europe for many centuries (Copernicus, Galileo, etc.).
Oh my gosh. You mean Christianity did all that? I didn't know. Gee.
Well, if I really were so ignorant, you still would be off center, because my point here was not that atheist societies are amoral and religious societies moral. I was trying to point out that a society's values can change and become very different. You see yourself as a moral person, but that is because you live by the morals your society holds to. If you lived by the same moral code in a society of strict Islamic interpretation, you would actually be immoral, according to society.
It was only when secular sphere (such as science), led by intellectuals, forced the Church to change and accept new norms that were demanded by the people. So I hope we are now clear on the fact that it is the secular sphere to be credited for the modern western society and NOT the religion.
It is fair to mention that in northern countries the Church wasn't forced but rather reformed itself. But still, the reformation was a result of influence and progress in the secular sphere.
Thanks for the history lesson, though I probably know more on the topic than you, including the piousness of those individuals who reformed such views. It still has nothing to do with what I am addressing here.
darth_ender said:
Lest you use this as an argument against religion due to the extremism of such Muslims
Some Muslim countries have their "middle age" as we had ours in Europe. A common denominator in both cases is/was a religion.
darth_ender said:
I do wish to point out that even atheistic societies like North Korea and the Soviet Union have adopted truly evil norms.
Of course there are some exceptions. But a vast majority of atheistic societies (EU countries) are doing very well in terms of moral norms.
Please do not continue on your train of thought. I said no such thing in either of the above quotes taken from the same sentence. I used the Islamic State as an example. I was trying to point out that religious and atheistic states both are capable of extreme evil and was not singling out Islam. That is all.
Btw this sounded like you consider USA a theocracy? It is kinda funny that it actually have some elements of theocracy, such as the use of bible in court. As an atheist, can you refuse to participate in that ritual?
Yes you can refuse. But I made no such statement or inference at all. You read into everything I said, but it appears you understood nothing. Please reply to my quotes and not what you think I must truly be getting at.