Idea & Info: Cinerama 70mm '2001' preservation. Is it possible? — Page 4

That would be awesome!

For a preservation of the best-color 2001, the 3-disc Criterion Collection CAV Special Edition laserdisc

can be had from eBay between $10 and $20+ (with auction history also showing under $10 wins). A state-of-the-art AntcuFaalb-style capture would be most excellent! *nudge, nudge, hint, hint*  :)

If just for the Kubrick-approved palette, the 2-disc Criterion Collection CLV budget laserdisc 

should do and it can be had for under $10.

Note that either one might require the rudimentary compensation to get it up Taschen-released-sources quality, if it doesn't actually come off the laserdisc that way (assuming both come with colorbars). Then, it should be ready for use as the full movie's color guide.

Due to the Criterion laserdisc coming from a 35mm scope source (apparently there was no equipment to do the mastering from 65mm), the resulting LD image was narrower. Therefore, my test H-S-L-mxing approach results in no color to transfer at the very edges (noticeable on the red chair, a few posts back). Short of cropping the final result, those wider edges would require color-correcting the higher definition source anyway. So just do it all that way from the start.

I tried a test color-correction to confirm that the 2001 HD release (screenshot from the DVDBeaver review, linked previously) wasn't some unholy Lucas-Lowry space graffiti. Fortunately not, for my simple histogram R-G-B manipulations corrected the spectrum nicely:

That is so wow!

So for clarification, do the CAV and CLV have the same picture? The Kubrick approved one? 

According to ..

 The Big Picture: 2001 on Video (http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/brown2.html) from the O.P.:

"If you're a 2001 fan lucky enough to have a laser disc player, there are six disc versions the best of which come remarkably close to the theatrical experience. These versions are:
...

"3 & 4. CAV and CLV Criterion disc sets. CAV is 6 sides, including "specials" the CLV is 3 sides without specials. These sets both use the same transfer, done in 1988 by the Voyager companies' legendary Maria Groumbos Palazzola. ... and Palazzola has written that he required 6 runs through with changes before he [Kubrick] would approve it. The transfer was "state of the art" for 1988, with good image detail, fairly low grain and good fidelity to Kubrick's detailed color scheme."

and ..

the LaserDisc Database entries for the "1989 CAV Criterion Collection #60 [CC1160L]" http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/00997/CC1160L/2001:-A-Space-Odyssey:-Special-Edition-%281968%29 and the "1990 CLV Criterion Collection #60A [CC1235L]" http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/03062/CC1235L/2001:-A-Space-Odyssey-%281968%29 ..

.. I'd say with confidence that they are the same, Kubrick-approved source.

OR ... to put it another way ... "Yes, that's a completely reliable figure."

Thanks for that confirmation -- and good to know about Criterion laserdiscs in general. I'm fairly new to the whole laserdisc thing but the more I hang around here, the more I see that old-technology laserdisc is indispensable!

And videotape, too!
To wit, this "New Year's Eve" TCM broadcast of 2001: A Space Odyssey, or HAL does it again:

TCM Comments on "2001: A Space Odyssey" in 2001
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGfjOZ9FRj4

Cool, just making sure. I assume they were the same but you can never be sure. Thanks for the info Spacer Ranger and Star Thoughts. I think I going to try to pick up a copy of the CLV version and at least do a capture first.

Just wanted to chime in ...

I made a quick survey of eBay. Neither of the two Criterion sets have a mention on the box, but color bars is listed on a CAV insert as being in the last track (fuzzy text but the blobs look right). I couldn't find an auction that listed or showed an insert for the CLV. Best to inquire where not sure.

Of course, when doing the 2001 restoration from the Blu-ray, I'd vote for the CAV as the color-base. Since a laserdisc will be captured, anyway, to assist in a restoration, all the extras of the CAV would make for the better side-result of a laserdisc preservation.  Good idea? 

Those 2 comparison images above make me sad. I had no idea 2001 was messed with so badly on blu-ray. The blu-ray screenshot looks positively blue when compared with the color-corrected image. I can't believe they did this to 2001. Well, I can believe it. But it makes me sad.

I think the studios are taking the term blu-ray too literally. It doesn't mean the movies need to actually look blue.

Ok, I found a copy of the CLV. I would of preferred the CAV because color bars as Spaced Ranger pointed out and the extras but the CLV was a steal so I'm not thinking twice about it. Once I get the disc, I will try to do a capture and post some pics from it vs the HD, old DVD.

I have a copy of the old MGM DVD which I assume is the same master as the MGM LD (supposedly has the original dialog panning soundtrack also)

Whoa ... looking forward to those screen-caps (include the color-bars, too)! 

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@ Oldfan

And it isn't just the blue's (or teal's ... as there's some of that in this Blu-ray, too). There's even a trend to drop the brightness level -- apparently to raise color saturation (only that's not the way to do it). In short, they are just plain incompetent. And their bosses are incompetent for keeping them on. And the studio heads are incompetent for letting them run things.    Stanley, you were right! Come back!

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@ althor1138

Would you do something independent from PDB? Or join his with something like an AntcuFaalb-style best-average multi-source AVS-script processing? And/or working towards an all-Criterion-laserdisc-versions preservation?

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@ captainsolo

Speaking of prints, poita once mentioned that some prints come up now-and-again. I wonder if there are any 2001 film preservations going on? It'd be very interesting to see clips from that. 

Excellent! I hope you'll post samples (stills) along with details of the capture process, equipment, etc. It would be awesome to compare the various procedures for their outcomes (for those of us who would like to eventually do such tasks). In fact, posting a raw capture screenshot compared to the finished capture process would be very helpful, too.

Posting the same shots (and additional examples) of other posters would greatly help in that regard. Perhaps the DVDBeaver review 2001: A Space Odyssey (with multiple releases highlighted including, of course, the Blu-ray) ..
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReview/2001.htm
.. might suggest particular screenshots to demonstrate the strengths of the 2001:ASO Criterion Collection laserdisc.

Wow talk about good timing. I was just getting photos together to post here. I got the LD Monday and just did a very quick and dirty capture of the LD last night. It was just to see what it looked like. Sadly, there are no color bars on the CLV which is odd for a Criterion. 

Edit: Notice compared to the DVDBeaver pics, that the corn is orange but the peas and fish are green. Here are two more from the DVDBeaver pics

Too bad about those color bars not being on the CLV, but the caps look great -- those colors coming through will make the Blu-ray color-correction shine! Maybe althor1138 can post his color bars with a couple of full spectrum screenshots to act as a Rosetta Stone? The Criterion laserdisc looks to be consistent throughout (see the following test adjustment). Then you can adjust your captures to match with a single setting.

In that regard, I tried a quick brightness (gamma) & contrast (midtones expand) on ld_comp_1.jpg:

Very nice.  :)

BTW, http://s21.postimg.org/7r80easzb/ld_comp_2.jpg is not coming through for me. ld_comp_1.jpg, ld_comp_3.jpg, and ld_comp_4.jpg show fine. Postimg.com appears to be a little flaky. I've seen this problem before. I wonder if it's their "s21" (server21?). Could you upload ld_comp_2.jpg again?

Nice results Spaced Ranger.

Strange I could always see the pics. I re-uploaded ld comp 2. They are on S1 now. Let's see if you can see them now.

Now for some comparisons. They may not be the same exact frame.

Criterion CLV LD/MGM DVD (Should be the same master as the MGM LD)/BD

You can see a bit of the exasperating modern green tint added to the BD

captainsolo said:

Also keep in mind, the WB was from a newly struck print off of the 65mm negative. This being done in the early 2000's means that none of the process would have involved vintage equipment, stock or processes. The Criterion used a 35mm print which will itself look different. (I saw one like this and it remains the best edition yet in my book. Usually you see the 2K WB remaster or a 35mm print made from the "new" WB edition.)

It's also good you got the CLV version because according to an old post of Disclord's I found, the CAV is misframed badly...at least on the rotted 3M first issue. I never realized that my second copy is a 3M, which is rotted, but my usual one that doesn't really have any is the Pioneer reissue. I'll have to check the framings since Pioneer made both CAV and CLV in 1990.

(http://www.quadraphonicquad.com/forums/showthread.php?15100-quot-2001-a-Space-Odyssey-quot-Laserdisc-Criterion-Box-set-GREAT-SURROUND)

Also here, disclord discussed the audio used and how the six-track element transferred had some distortion and a lack in bass compared to the later discrete transfers. On my system some distortion is inherent and if properly decoded through say a Shure HTS processor into proper 4 channel DS we might be able to better present this alongside the 5.1 discrete from MGM which still has the original mix.

I'll have to also check the PCM on my MGM CLV and see if it runs better.

 Good read captainsolo. Not sure if the CLV is reframed correctly but in the short time I looked at it, it seems fine (notwithstanding coming from a 35mm print vs 65/70).

Luckily, If someone was ever to try this project I have the PCM track from the Crtiterion LD and the AC-3 5.1 from the MGM DVD. Also luckily I have a 1st gen Shure HTS among my matrix decoders ;).

Let me know what you find on the PCM track. I haven't listen to it in surround yet. In the meantime here is a quick, quick regrade of the BD to the LD:

Not perfect but you get the idea. 

PDB said:

Strange I could always see the pics. I re-uploaded ld comp 2. They are on S1 now. Let's see if you can see them now.

Yes, now it's showing for me. Thanks! It's flaky and not everyone has trouble with it all the time. (I wonder if it's some sort of international access / blocking for certain servers?)

Really nice screenshots! There's a pinkish hue that shows up when the LD pictures are on the darker side. It minimizes as the brightness goes up to the Taschen-pictures level. I'm wondering if it's something like gamma weighting during laserdisc mastering (something that Kubrick wouldn't see during the approval process?).

Wikipedia - "Luma (video)"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luma_(video)

Spaced Ranger, I could be wrong but I think the pink may just be a result of being an old telecine. I've seen similar pink in masters from the late 80s and 90s. It can easily be removed and I did peal away a little in my test regrade pics but I wanted to post the LD pics as is.

Asaki, I agree that the BD doesn't look bad outside the blanket green added. Its just the LD was approved by the man himself. So since this is the internet those differences minor as they can be sometimes are important. Beside there are enough color differences to warrant a discussion.

captainsolo, I got a Shure based off Disclord recommendations. Sadly, its an early model, the 5000 over the better 5200/5300 but it was super cheap on ebay and in perfect condition.

@ captainsolo

Another great link chock full of vital info! There's just no end of the quest to get a good representation of the movie.  :O

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@ PDB

Maybe pink in the master, but wouldn't that (among other things) be what the restoration team was fixing?

This is what made me wonder ..

Here, the brightness & contrast are identically raised -- on the left by luminance, on the right by synchronized R-G-B. One would expect the results to be identical, but they're not. That's because gamma-weighting of the individual R-G-B components is built into luminance adjustment. This is supposedly to compensate for real-world devices and how they reproduce color for our perception. The direct R-G-B adjustment has no weighting (obviously).

Isn't anything simple? It always gets curiouser and curiouser. 

Anyway, establishing a good color correlation from the Criterion's color bars (althor1138's capture?) would determine if there's anything to this. That's assuming the CAV and CLV images were identical going on, and coming off, their respective laserdiscs.

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@ Asaki

All the on-the-set pictures I've seen only show standard incandescent lighting fixtures (whether behind panels or on stands). Also, filming fluorescent lighting produces beat, like filming off a TV screen. FX supervisor Trumbull only later, while working on his Silent Running sci-fi movie, developed combined, counter-phased lighting to work around the fluorescent problem. So I wouldn't think that's the problem.

Further, Kubrick had already established a system of Polaroid instant color photos, cross-referenced to film by director of photography Unsworth, to get exactly the color & lighting he wanted, on film, the first time. I hope he wasn't on a pink-kick.  :)