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Phantom Menace Discussion: Is the Duel of the fates a classic match? — Page 3

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grainger said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

grainger said:

Qui-Gon seems to be pretty popular, even among people who don't like TPM. I always wondered what they are seeing in him.

He is supposed to be wise.  But his most frequent line seems to be "I don't know".

A quote I really like from Data in ST:TNG, is that "I don't know" is the "beginning of wisdom". People are often afraid to admit when they don't know, so I'm with Qui Gon (and Data) on this one.

But the wise man is not the everyman character we identify with. He's wise for a reason.

You yourself and your buddy next to you might be wise to say "I don't know" but do you really want the guy with his finger on the nuclear control launch button not knowing what he's doing?

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 (Edited)

Alderaan said:

grainger said:

Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

grainger said:

Qui-Gon seems to be pretty popular, even among people who don't like TPM. I always wondered what they are seeing in him.

He is supposed to be wise.  But his most frequent line seems to be "I don't know".

A quote I really like from Data in ST:TNG, is that "I don't know" is the "beginning of wisdom". People are often afraid to admit when they don't know, so I'm with Qui Gon (and Data) on this one.

But the wise man is not the everyman character we identify with. He's wise for a reason.

You yourself and your buddy next to you might be wise to say "I don't know" but do you really want the guy with his finger on the nuclear control launch button not knowing what he's doing?

 Fair point, but it depends what you're saying "I don't know" about. "Are we being attacked?" "I don't know" is a reasonable reply, until you've seen evidence that it's happening. Rather than saying "Yes - let's fire the nukes" when there's no evidence there.

Coming back to Qui Gon, though: I don't remember him saying "I don't know" - if it was in reference to Jedi skills or organisation, then I agree with you, it makes him look incompetent. If, however, it was about what was happening, and they really didn't know, then he's probably being wise. As long as the movie gives him a chance to show his wisdom in other ways - e.g. coming up with a reasonable course of action. Can you give an example of what he said he didn't know/

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Absolutely - admitting when you don't know something is indeed wise.  But there's a fine line... if the person in question seems to never know anything, then you start to wonder if that air of deep calmness is actually just "nobody's home".  By the end of the movie I was getting that impression with Qui-Gon, which I'm sure was not the movie's intent.

I'm not going to go back and count the number of "I don't know"s (that would require me to actually watch TPM again)... I just remember that I was struck by how often he'd point something out that he observed, as though it's important, then when asked what it meant, he'd get a concerned look on his face and say "I don't know".  It just seemed like dialogue cop-out.

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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 (Edited)

In ANH the location made sense. Ben is both drawing away the troops but also introducing Son to Father in a twisted sort of way.

In ESB the location made sense as an extension of the industrial purpose of Cloud City.

ROTJ is where it begins to go a bit wrong with the inexplicable doom pit but generally it works as a temporary throne room. A viewing arena for the end of the Rebellion and the hand over of the old apprentice to the new.

TPM it made very little sense that the high-tech sparkly glow pole factory exists as an extension of the hyper-renaissance style palace. It looked more like the interior of a giant space ship than a massive power station on Naboo, This is compounded by the lack of any staff or droids running the place. Bespin was in the process of evacuation through most of the ESB duel and the central vent was vast so it was plausible we didn't see anyone working that space (either because they have run away or because they were too small in comparison to the vent) but if the Naboo power station is as active as the sparky things suggest, shouldn't something be running the place? The Federation has taken over but they have millions of droids. It just seems like a set up for a dance scene in a musical with three guys flipping around inside a disco out of hours.

The bulk of Star Wars duels is (as said earlier) banter being thrown around more than weight. At no point do the Jedi try and get any information out of the guy yet they are there to investigate him under orders from the council in the interest of the chancellor and the senate?

Why?

None of the PT duels make much sense but TPM duel illustrates the whole problem with the PT. It's there because it can be, not because it needs to be.

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Dammit, I liked the duel and I don't care what you guys say, you can't take it away from me.

Not everything has to make perfect sense.

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grainger said:

 Fair point, but it depends what you're saying "I don't know" about. "Are we being attacked?" "I don't know" is a reasonable reply, until you've seen evidence that it's happening. Rather than saying "Yes - let's fire the nukes" when there's no evidence there.

Coming back to Qui Gon, though: I don't remember him saying "I don't know" - if it was in reference to Jedi skills or organisation, then I agree with you, it makes him look incompetent. If, however, it was about what was happening, and they really didn't know, then he's probably being wise. As long as the movie gives him a chance to show his wisdom in other ways - e.g. coming up with a reasonable course of action. Can you give an example of what he said he didn't know/

How many times did Obi-Wan or Yoda say "I don't know" in the OT?

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TV's Frink said:

Dammit, I liked the duel and I don't care what you guys say, you can't take it away from me.

Not everything has to make perfect sense.

*said while sitting in the bathtub, sucking thumb, rocking back and forth* 

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Bingowings said:

The bulk of Star Wars duels is (as said earlier) banter being thrown around more than weight. At no point do the Jedi try and get any information out of the guy yet they are there to investigate him under orders from the council in the interest of the chancellor and the senate?

That's a very good point I'd never considered. Maul is the silent type, so - dull as it is - it's fair enough that he doesn't say anything during the fight. But the Jedi should at least try to get some information out of him. This was a missed opportunity to have some taunting/banter between the opponents.

The duels in the other PT films have their problems (in some cases serious ones), but they at least more enjoyable because the characters talk to each other (IMO - I realise many people think the PM duel is one of the best SW sabre fights).

Also, why didn't Obi-Wan check out Maul's ship for clues? Did it auto-destruct before he could do so? I can't remember now if this was ever shown/explained (pretty sure it wasn't), but it seems like a bit of a loose end; having him check it out - even if it blew up as he approached - would have mad the Jedi look a bit more competent/aware that something's going on. This lack of awareness/agency is a problem that gets worse in the next film when they don't figure out the rather obvious Jango/Dooku/Sifu-Dyas/Separatist/Clone order mystery. They seem oddly passive and uninvolved throughout the PT.

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 (Edited)

TV's Frink said:

Dammit, I liked the duel and I don't care what you guys say, you can't take it away from me.

Not everything has to make perfect sense.

 OTTO dance party doesn't make sense.

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Bingowings said:

TV's Frink said:

Dammit, I liked the duel and I don't care what you guys say, you can't take it away from me.

Not everything has to make perfect sense.

 OTTO dance party doesn't make sense.

 http://i1043.photobucket.com/albums/b432/greenpenguino/starwars_anewhope_1.jpg

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I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm only trying to explain my own (subjective) reaction. If you enjoyed it, that's cool. It's not a fact that it's bad, or anything like that.

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Wasn't the gimic supposed to be the mystery surrounding Darth Maul and Qui Gon being forced into action? The film probably doesn't set it up well but it is the end to the first notable conflict between Jedi and this new unknown Sith threat right?. How could it have been better presented to exploit a meaningful clash of mental wills between the characters?

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 (Edited)

Having though about this some more, I'm not sure a lack of history between the characters is the problem, really. From the minute we see Vader in ANH, he has presence as a villain. Maul is just a flashy martial artist with a stock movie villain voice, a painted face and a double-bladed sabre. He (IMO) has no villainous presence whatsoever (and I'm not sure why Vader works, but he does).

I suspect that if Vader and Obi Wan didn't know each other in ANH, and just had their slow sabre battle in silence, it would still have been more engaging than the Maul fight - but I'm not sure why. Perhaps it's as simple as Obi Wan giving the others a chance to escape - whereas in Menace, it's just a fight for the sake of it. Or perhaps it's just Alec Guinness's screen presence (and Vader's screen presence; as I said, IMO Maul's got nothing)?

I'd be very interesting to hear what everyone else thinks about this.

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Actually, I think that in ANH, if Obi Wan went off to fight Vader (imagine they didn't need him to take down the tractor beam, and he wasn't distracting Vader, so he went off just to fight), it would still have been a great fight. So I don't think it's a great fight because Obi Wan was helping them escape.

It must be down to intangible factors - maybe the whole production style, the music, the acting, the pacing - that makes the ANH fight great, and the Menace one mediocre, despite the film-makers' best efforts to make it engaging.