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.: The Zion DVD Project :. (Released) — Page 13

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Hey guys, for those of you doing anamorphic transfers, you are going to have major headaches with subtitles. I'm talking about the alien language bits, not the hearing-impaired subs. Normal subs can go wherever you want them. But for the alien bits, you want them in the same place on any screen.
The idea would be to create a subtitle file that looks as close as possible to the original prints, right?
So you might figure that you can do a screen capture of the print, bring it into Photoshop and create subs on a new layer in the same position as the originals, and with approximately the same font. Then save that layer as a BMP and use it for the DVD. You might think this would result in a DVD that has subtitles in the same position as the original, right? Well, that's actually wrong.
First of all, the subtitles will appear in different places of the picture depending on if you're using a Widescreen or 4:3 TV. See, subtitles aren't scaled with the picture to fit the TV. They are applied after the picture is scaled. They appear at the same distance to the bottom of the screen.
However, the picture will appear closer to the bottom of the screen on a Widescreen TV, and further on a 4:3 TV (due to the letterboxing). Got it? So the subtitles will be in different spots relative to the picture.
Fortunately, DVDs can have separate subtitles for Widescreen and LB. The player will only "see" the subtitles for that ratio. So you will still have 1 subtitle track when you look at it on a player, but in reality there are 2 subtitle tracks, one for Wide and one for LB. You will need a DVD authoring program that is capable of making different streams for Wide and LB. May I suggest you learn and acquire DVD Maestro. This is a professional authoring program that can do almost anything that DVDs are capable of. It's not sold anymore so you'll have to find a way to get it. Then you simply scale the LB track so that the subs are smaller and in the right spot. I can go into specifics but it will probably be an information overload at this stage.

OK, that's that problem solved, but now there's another (small) one. This is the problem of non-square pixels. If you take a screenshot of the print to make subs with, you will get a 720x480 bitmap. Fit the subs over it and they will look fine on a Widescreen TV or software player. BUT they will look too "tall" on a 4:3 TV. You will need to resize them in Photoshop so that when they are played back on a 4:3 they appear the right size. I'm currently figuring out the exact sizes you need for this. Anyway I can let you know when you are in the authoring stage.

To make this a bit clearer, I'll tell you why I have had to learn it. I am working on a DVD of an anime movie. There are 2 different versions, the japanese and the english version. Both are the same except for the opening credits. In the english version there are english credits alongside the japanese ones (basically they just float over the top of the japanese credits). I only want one video file on the disc. So I decided to recreate the english version by using a subtitle track that goes over the top of the video. I created subtitle BMPs which match these credits and made them play when the english version is selected. I managed to make subtitles that appear in the same place and with the right size for any TV, thus matching the english version of the movie.

If your goal is the same, that is to have the subtitles appear in the right spot on any TV so as to match the originals, then you will need to learn this stuff. Actually you will have problems even if you just want a Letterboxed DVD. I might write a full guide on this that will help you out. Or, I could make the subtitle files for you and email them over or something. But you probably don't want to worry about it till you are authoring the discs.
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You're also assuming he's not going to burn the alien subs into the film, that he's going to make them an actual sub on the DVD... (I don't know what he's doing about that)
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Personally I found that "burning" the alien subtitles worked best for me but I get the idea that Zion wants to keep the image clean. While I can understand why keeping the image clean is important, I was sucessful in putting the alien subs in the lower black bar. Even on a 16x9 TV the black bars are still thick enough to work because Star Wars is a 2.35:1 film. At the time though I didn't have access to the new subtitling tools

I've found a program that should do everything that'll need to be done and can convert betwixt the major formats.

The biggest thing is where they display on the screen and you are correct that there is a different set with different placement of the text for widescreen and Letterbox (for 4x3 tvs.)

I'm assuming there is time to figure all this out. Getting every frame of the film in order and all nice and pretty is the important part. Hopefully if all the frames are present and are in 23.976 timing, the audio and subtitles should fall into place.
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skeg64,

Great post. If you read the first post of this thread you will note that I'm using Sonic Scenarist as my authoring program. I am aware of the differences between anamorphic and letterbox subtitles and how to create them.

At this time, I'm still contemplating whether or not to burn the alien subs directly to the video. If I decide to burn them in, I also need to decide whether or not I want them on the video, or on the black bar below it. I really don't know what how I want to do this, so everyone please feel free to give me your opinion on the matter.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]

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Well since you are doing an anamorphic set, you don't have the option of burning them into the black bars, really. The black bars that would be put there on a 4:3 TV are not part of the encoded video (I realise you probably know this already).
If you were to put them burned in to the tiny black bars that are a part of the video stream, they would look odd on a 4:3 TV because they would be up too high. And on a Widescreen TV they would look really weird so far down.
You don't really want to burn them over the top of the video either, since that's not how they are on the LD and you would be losing some of the picture (this is just my preference though). If I am watching a letterboxed movie I would prefer the subs in the black bars.
I think that encoded subpicture streams give you more compatiblity with different shaped TVs.
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"Well since you are doing an anamorphic set, you don't have the option of burning them into the black bars, really. The black bars that would be put there on a 4:3 TV are not part of the encoded video (I realise you probably know this already)."

Incorrect. The black bars are manadatory in the MPEG.They must be there to create a "legal" 720x480 frame. If you look carefully at an anamorphic transfer of a film with a ratio other than 16x9 played on a 4x3 television, you will see that the bars immediately above and below the picture can be a different shade of black from the rest of the TV screen. Since SW is 2.35:1 instead of 1.78:1, then you will need the black bars. That being said, I had no problems burning subtitles into the black bars.

"And on a Widescreen TV they would look really weird so far down."

Have you seen such subtitles? I thought they looked fine on my transfer.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Mebejedi, I think you misread his post he knows what bars are part of the video and which ones are not:

The black bars that would be put there on a 4:3 TV are not part of the encoded video (I realise you probably know this already).
If you were to put them burned in to the tiny black bars that are a part of the video stream ...
I wish I had a Kryptonite cross, because then you could keep both Dracula AND Superman away.
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Bars are required on anything wider than 1.78:1 (Star Wars is 2.35:1) DVD players add additional thickness to the bars when fitting it to 4x3 TVs. Research it, you'll find it to be true.

I had luck with the alien subs in the black bars when I did my copy of Jedi (I was working backwards) and would highly recommend against them marring the image. I'd primarily object because it's possible to do the alien ones in the bars as they only come one line of text at a time. This effort seems focused on utmost quality so why spoil the picture if it can be easily be avoided? DVD subtitles can be set to coordinates corresponding to the black bars so it'll look fine.

After playing with a program called Subtitle Workshop (and others) I think the alien subs (and to a lesser degree the Closed captioned ones as they are sometimes more than one line) can be done properly in the correct font with overlay thus keeping the image pure. Which is the point, isn't it?

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"I think you misread his post he knows what bars are part of the video and which ones are not:"

Okay...I see what you (he) are (is) saying now. My bad .

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Originally posted by: zion
Hey man, I sent you a pm a few minutes ago, but it appears that you don't have private messages turned on. Click on profile at the top and turn them on.


Wow, that's weird. I'm pretty sure I've gotten PMs from people here before. I'm not sure why it is disabled now. Anyway, send the PM away again. I'll get it this time.

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Now that the ghost-removal has hit its (current) limits, I tried myself on improving the quality in some other areas. One of the visible artifacts in the image were jaggy diagonal lines, which I tried to smooth out using the SangNom deinterlace filter for AviSynth. Its actual purpose is to make deinterlaced material progressive, meaning the jaggy lines resulting from deinterlacing an interlaced source being smoothed to improve resolution. Here are some captures I took from Gonzo's set, comparing its original state as taken from the DVD with the optimized version, using the SangNom filter (and the LimitedSharpen filter, to compensate for any blurring resulting from it):

http://www.scummbar.com/mi2/temp/opt0.gifhttp://www.scummbar.com/mi2/temp/opt1.gifhttp://www.scummbar.com/mi2/temp/opt2.gif

And here's an MPEG (ca. 10MB) showing Zion's capture switching between its raw version and my optimized version (ghost-removal, jaggy-smoothing, contrast-correction).

The result is already pretty nice, but there are some situations, where SangNom causes artifacts to occure, like detail areas, where the filter can't differenciate between jaggies and detail. Some examples are the letters from the opening crawl as they get smaller, and some of the space-ship details. But judging from the few miutes of film I've tested this on, these artifacts might be negligible, regarding the quality boost in most other scenes. Maybe it's even an option to combine filtered and unfiltered scenes in editing... though I would understand if Zion doesn't want to do this
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In responce to captioning. If you burn them into the video, as I intend to, Don't forget to put a few pixel stroke on your text maybe even a slight drop shadow. But the stroke is what really makes the text pop out and more readable (I luv to spell, I'm acutally finishing my dissertation, but have the spelling ability of a 3 year old)

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It's a small mind that can spell a word only one way.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Wow, Laserschwert, those are some pretty impressive results with SangNom (the link you posted was to an AviSynth filter, not VDub, so I'm a bit confused). I starting playing around with it (and the antialiasing function script on Doom9) on some of my LD-caps, but I can't get anywhere near the quality of improvement evident in your sample. Could you please post or PM me the script you used? Thanks!
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Oops, my mistake... I meant "SangNom for AviSynth"... it was late. I've tried to do as much processing in AviSynth as possible... this spares me some uneccessary further inbetween steps. I didn't use the antialiasing-script from Doom9... I've started with it, but it was slow as hell. So I've tried using SangNom alone, and that's the result you see above. Here's the script:

    LoadPlugin("E:\Programme\AviSynth2\plugins\bak\MaskTools.dll")

    v1=AviSource("e:\zion_rec.avi").SeparateFields.SelectEvery(10,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,9).Weave.AssumeFPS(23.976)
    v2=AviSource("e:\zion_rec.avi").SeparateFields.SelectEvery(10,0,1,2,3,4,5,6,9).Weave.AssumeFPS(23.976).crop(4,0,0,0).AddBorders(0,0,4,0, color=$FFFFFF).blur(.5)

    v3 = overlay(v1,v2, opacity=0.2, mode="Darken")

    v4 = v3.Crop(0,102,-0,-102).Lanczos4Resize(720,600)

    v4a=v4.SangNom(order=0)
    v4b=v4.SangNom(order=1)

    v5 = v4a.ConvertToYV12.overlay(v4b, opacity=0.5).LimitedSharpen
    v6 = v5.Levels(0,1.236,224,0,255).Lanczos4Resize(720,376).AddBorders(0,52,0,52)

    Return v6


The steps until v3 are necessary for my "bright ghost"-removal, so the script gets a little big there (strange enough the Telecide filter, which worked well in the past, now gets me one double frame every 5 or so frames... that's why I've returned to my manual IVTC-method using SelectEvery).

v4 is used to cut off the black bars from the capture, and to provide some extra resolution for SangNom to work with. Now, you can see that I've used two instances of SangNom, resulting in v4a and v4b. The reason is, SangNom was developed as a deinterlacing filter, so it is used to work with "bobbing" footage (footage, that is deinterlaced, and therefore alternates, "bobs", between the two fields), so it needs some info on the footage's field-order. In this case though there is no field order, since the jaggy lines are not resulting from deinterlacing anything.

So, we'll use SangNom for both possible field-orders (v4a and v4b), and blend the two results in v5. I am also adding the LimitedSharpen script (which I might post or link to on request), to compensate for any blurring caused by SangNom, and since that script needs the MaskTools-package, I've loaded it in the first line (it causes some trouble when being autoloaded from the AviSynth plugin directory, so you have to put it in some other directory and load it manually).

v6 doesn't do too much... some little contrast correction (I guess this could be left out when you do the color correction in Premiere afterwards), the image get's resized to the anamorphic size, and the black bars are added to give the image the full resolution of 720x480.

I hope this helps.
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Originally posted by: Laserschwert
http://www.scummbar.com/mi2/temp/opt0.gifhttp://www.scummbar.com/mi2/temp/opt1.gifhttp://www.scummbar.com/mi2/temp/opt2.gif
That's GREAT.
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Just try again later... from time to time the server has "issues".
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By the way, now that MeBeJedi has posted some of his captures, I have played around with them a little bit, and I've got an idea:

MeBe has captured his footage at quite a low contrast... so blacks are not black but dark-grey, whereas whites aren't completely white either. Now, using my old ghost removal method (basically using the Exorcist filter, or AviSynth's pendant Ghostbuster) works without any of the problematic artifacts, because they resulted from blacks already being perfect black and whites being perfect white in the captures (as it was the case with the clip I got from you).
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Zion, Any chance you read my e-mail. Any chance you might be interested in my LD's to help your project??? ESB is not a Faces version and I'm not sure what version it is, but both the ANH and ROTJ are from Faces set.
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@zion: Remember me? I'm the guy who dreamed up TooT (although I didn't code it), and I hooked you up with the font you needed for your menu. I've finally found this forum, and your thread in particular (obviously...), and so far I'm pretty impressed. Sorta too bad you're working from US NTSC (the Japanese Collector's Set is the same transfer, but with better black levels and contrast, in my somewhat-learned opinion -- and PAL is even better), but you've got it looking about as nice as I've seen anywhere.

@Laserschwert: Yes, please: post a link to LimitedSharpen! Your latest script is pretty hot. My raw PAL cap looks about as good as the heavily-tweaked NTSC cap, so I don't need v1 through v3 -- but I'm really interested in v4 onwards. [Slightly OT: Also, maybe you'll know definitively: does PAL need IVTC? No, I know it doesn't need 3:2 pulldown reversal, but PAL is still interlaced on telecining, so I wonder if it would benefit from some Telecide() work -- without Decimate -- to get rid of 2:2 pulldown?]

FYI, my latest efforts involve variations on TooT, and rotoscoping of dust/scratches/etc. It's time-consuming (I could use a team of rotoscope artists -- aka people with Photoshop/Paintshop Pro/Gimp with enough patience to scroll through thousands of frames and paint over dust specks), but I think that's something never before seen in OT LD preservations, and I think the results are pretty nice. Maybe one of these days I should start my own thread??

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"Now, using my old ghost removal method (basically using the Exorcist filter, or AviSynth's pendant Ghostbuster) works without any of the problematic artifacts, because they resulted from blacks already being perfect black and whites being perfect white in the captures (as it was the case with the clip I got from you)."

Which is precisely why I wanted my capture to be as neutral and faithful to the source material as possible. I'm glad it's working out for you. Can't wait to see the results.

Hi, Karyudo! It's me - eandtc! Welcome to my other board.

"but I think that's something never before seen in OT LD preservations, and I think the results are pretty nice. Maybe one of these days I should start my own thread??"

Actually, I've begun doing that with Combustion 3.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Hey Karyudo! Nice to see you've made your way over here. The TooT filter is working out great, now that I've gotten three copies of the Faces trilogy. I hope you'll stick around. I'd love to see what results you're getting lately. I'm thinking of doing the same thing and goint in and painting out the specs frame by frame. Now if I could only find a place to download Combustion 3....


Daniel, sorry I haven't gotten back to you yet. I'm sending you a PM now.

My Projects:
[Holiday Special Hybrid DVD v2]
[X0 Project]
[Backstroke of the West DVD]
[ROTS Theatrical DVD]