Has anyone captured the Raiders LD audio?
I like the warm look of the BD, but I feel the contrast could do with being a bit punchier for some scenes, so sometimes for this reason I go back to the wowow.
Trouble is, I think since the DVD, quite a lot of people have gotten used to that particular look for Raiders, I know I did, even though I grew up with the VHS for years.
I really do like that 8mm color quality. I feel like it could be scanned and corrected to lessen the red shift, and we could get a better idea of the color.
litemakr said:
What are people's thoughts about the super 8? It doesn't match wowow or blu-ray really, but it is closer to wowow. It has more red and brown than wowow (some due to slight red shift), but not the orange/gold haze of the blu.
Thanks for posting it litemakr. I hope you don't mind that I'm going to post a few pics from it for this thread:
My comments are based on the video you posted, you are actually seeing the print which is a different experience. So if I'm off let me know. Overall its is similar to the 16mm pics I posted. I can see why you originally said the 8mm looked half way between the WOWOW and the BD. It looks to me like the print starts closest to the WOWOW but with a little of the 16mm yellow in it but over all very pale with cold-ish color timing. But the pics toward the end come off as similar in orange to the BD, unless that's the red/brown you a referencing and it show up more as orange here. Brown, red and orange can mush together sometimes. I can't 100% determine from you video but are the skies blue-ish or yellow-ish in the desert scenes? I notice that the credits are more yellow-ish then white.
It is fair to point out that on a color wheel there are many, many different yellows (as we all know):
And if I had to determine what went where the 16mm tends to the green side of the yellow spectrum whereas the 35mm and the BD are clearly toward the red (obviously passing into orange).
captainsolo said:
It's posts like this that remind me why I love this place so much. Thoughtful, insightful, honest and respectful to the film itself.
Plus people here don't think I'm crazy. That helps.
That "restored" 35mm toured the country and was indeed what I saw theatrically. It was from a 6K scan I think from what I've heard and was the last thing Ron Smith oversaw before leaving Paramount. Other than a fresh scan I don't think they did very much...but then of course you have the color which was the basic source of the BD look. Seeing this print was an odd experience as the color was the look of the BD but with far greater detail in addition to being extremely bright. You could faintly see some of the coverups done to hide the negative damage from the Tanis dig sequence at times. The sound seemed to be a very low volume version of the DVD 5.1. Then this was shown digitally in IMAX with apparently the new Blu-ray mix.
Trailers have a certain look, original prints look a certain way, and all of those have their own identities. All I can say is that my favorite audio is on the WS LD.
Now I really want to see a print for all 3. I've seen grabs of frames from LC, and that had a depth not found on disc. I can't even begin to think of how awesome Temple would be.
Thanks captain. I tried to lay out my thoughts as clearly and precisely as possible, notwithstanding my horrific typing skills. I don't believe these things about Raiders without a clear chain of evidence backing it up. This isn't in a vacuum.
I do maintain an open mind. Could I be wrong? Sure. Could I be right? Sure. But in a big picture sense, everyone could be wrong. I brought it up earlier that everyone thought they knew what The Matrix looked in theaters. And everyone was 100% wrong. Everyone. And that's a film from 1999 not 1981. Hell, I have the AFI Silver not too far away from my house. I have seen Raiders and the other two many, many times on original 35mm in the 2000s and I based none of my arguments on those viewings. People's memories are too weak for that, the Matrix taught me that.
When I saw Road Warrior a few years ago, I printed out pics from the BD and DVD to see what was the true color timing of that movie. I had clear goals as to what I was looking for. So from the guy in a theater holding up printouts to the screen to figure out the right colors, you're not crazy, you're home here at the OT.
Digressing again. If anyone is near Maryland, USA and a film lover you should really go to the AFI Silver. Its a movie lovers dream. They have an 80's month every August where you can watch 80s era films as original 80s era prints.
Captainsolo is right. Trailers are iffy to go off of. They can have no, some or full color timing. Depending where on the chain they were put together. I re-graded Aliens to its 35mm trailer but is that right? Who knows.
In the end I'm not trying to convince people to watch the BD over the WOWOW, I know better then that with this crowd (which includes me). And for point of order I watch both. Frankly, I would love a combo, the detail of the WOWOW with the color timing of the BD and the LD's Dolby Surround. But again at the end of the day we need a non-faded 80s era print. So someone else get on that and help me out, I'm trying to find one myself. And if I'm wrong I won't give a crap since I will have a 35mm print of Raiders proving me wrong.
rockin said:
Has anyone captured the Raiders LD audio?
Yep and synced to the BD.
And to put a cap on this post, someone posted on the digitalbits posted a pic from a foreign 70mm print of Last Crusade. Not saying this is right but if you hate the orange of the Raiders BD, this is going to kill you:
rockin said:
Has anyone captured the Raiders LD audio?
Yep and synced to the BD.
Really? Who do we have to send a PM to in order to get this?
PDB said:
litemakr said:
What are people's thoughts about the super 8? It doesn't match wowow or blu-ray really, but it is closer to wowow. It has more red and brown than wowow (some due to slight red shift), but not the orange/gold haze of the blu.
Thanks for posting it litemakr. I hope you don't mind that I'm going to post a few pics from it for this thread:
My comments are based on the video you posted, you are actually seeing the print which is a different experience. So if I'm off let me know. Overall its is similar to the 16mm pics I posted. I can see why you originally said the 8mm looked half way between the WOWOW and the BD. It looks to me like the print starts closest to the WOWOW but with a little of the 16mm yellow in it but over all very pale with cold-ish color timing. But the pics toward the end come off as similar in orange to the BD, unless that's the red/brown you a referencing and it show up more as orange here. Brown, red and orange can mush together sometimes. I can't 100% determine from you video but are the skies blue-ish or yellow-ish in the desert scenes? I notice that the credits are more yellow-ish then white.
It is fair to point out that on a color wheel there are many, many different yellows (as we all know):
And if I had to determine what went where the 16mm tends to the green side of the yellow spectrum whereas the 35mm and the BD are clearly toward the red (obviously passing into orange).
captainsolo said:
It's posts like this that remind me why I love this place so much. Thoughtful, insightful, honest and respectful to the film itself.
Plus people here don't think I'm crazy. That helps.
That "restored" 35mm toured the country and was indeed what I saw theatrically. It was from a 6K scan I think from what I've heard and was the last thing Ron Smith oversaw before leaving Paramount. Other than a fresh scan I don't think they did very much...but then of course you have the color which was the basic source of the BD look. Seeing this print was an odd experience as the color was the look of the BD but with far greater detail in addition to being extremely bright. You could faintly see some of the coverups done to hide the negative damage from the Tanis dig sequence at times. The sound seemed to be a very low volume version of the DVD 5.1. Then this was shown digitally in IMAX with apparently the new Blu-ray mix.
Trailers have a certain look, original prints look a certain way, and all of those have their own identities. All I can say is that my favorite audio is on the WS LD.
Now I really want to see a print for all 3. I've seen grabs of frames from LC, and that had a depth not found on disc. I can't even begin to think of how awesome Temple would be.
Thanks captain. I tried to lay out my thoughts as clearly and precisely as possible, notwithstanding my horrific typing skills. I don't believe these things about Raiders without a clear chain of evidence backing it up. This isn't in a vacuum.
I do maintain an open mind. Could I be wrong? Sure. Could I be right? Sure. But in a big picture sense, everyone could be wrong. I brought it up earlier that everyone thought they knew what The Matrix looked in theaters. And everyone was 100% wrong. Everyone. And that's a film from 1999 not 1981. Hell, I have the AFI Silver not too far away from my house. I have seen Raiders and the other two many, many times on original 35mm in the 2000s and I based none of my arguments on those viewings. People's memories are too weak for that, the Matrix taught me that.
When I saw Road Warrior a few years ago, I printed out pics from the BD and DVD to see what was the true color timing of that movie. I had clear goals as to what I was looking for. So from the guy in a theater holding up printouts to the screen to figure out the right colors, you're not crazy, you're home here at the OT.
Digressing again. If anyone is near Maryland, USA and a film lover you should really go to the AFI Silver. Its a movie lovers dream. They have an 80's month every August where you can watch 80s era films as original 80s era prints.
Captainsolo is right. Trailers are iffy to go off of. They can have no, some or full color timing. Depending where on the chain they were put together. I re-graded Aliens to its 35mm trailer but is that right? Who knows.
In the end I'm not trying to convince people to watch the BD over the WOWOW, I know better then that with this crowd (which includes me). And for point of order I watch both. Frankly, I would love a combo, the detail of the WOWOW with the color timing of the BD and the LD's Dolby Surround. But again at the end of the day we need a non-faded 80s era print. So someone else get on that and help me out, I'm trying to find one myself. And if I'm wrong I won't give a crap since I will have a 35mm print of Raiders proving me wrong.
rockin said:
Has anyone captured the Raiders LD audio?
Yep and synced to the BD.
And to put a cap on this post, someone posted on the digitalbits a pic from a foreign 70mm print of Last Crusade. Not saying this is right but if you hate the orange of the Raiders BD, this is going to kill you:
That crusade pic is just a joke right? That is beyond f'd up colour wise, you know that the credits are white right??
It's clearly either a very warm back-light or a badly set camera - you can see the perforated stripes on the sides are yellow too and those are clear, so should be white :-)
Harmy said:
It's clearly either a very warm back-light or a badly set camera - you can see the perforated stripes on the sides are yellow too and those are clear, so should be white :-)
My thoughts too but I saw that in the discussion on Last Crusade's 70mm showing and though well that's not going help people in this thread. Ha
(Although I've seen a lot of slightly yellow sprockets on 70mm before.)
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/columns/history-legacy--showmanship/last-crusade-25th-anniv
If my PM holds out you can PM me for the LD soundtrack.
PDB said:
If anyone is near Maryland, USA
Columbia (Howard County) here!
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
AntcuFaalb said:
PDB said:
If anyone is near Maryland, USA
Columbia (Howard County) here!
Sweet, glad to see some fellow members here on the OT in the DMV. I'm across the river in Northern Virginia.
I'd buy that corrected pic from Last Crusade as being the theatrical scheme. Even though the sky isn't blue like the home transfers. (Was it washed out by the photographer's light source? Or is everything we know wrong again?)
I'm with Capt. Solo, I'd love to see all three captured from 35mm someday.
P
My comments are based on the video you posted, you are actually seeing the print which is a different experience. So if I'm off let me know. Overall its is similar to the 16mm pics I posted. I can see why you originally said the 8mm looked half way between the WOWOW and the BD. It looks to me like the print starts closest to the WOWOW but with a little of the 16mm yellow in it but over all very pale with cold-ish color timing. But the pics toward the end come off as similar in orange to the BD, unless that's the red/brown you a referencing and it show up more as orange here. Brown, red and orange can mush together sometimes. I can't 100% determine from you video but are the skies blue-ish or yellow-ish in the desert scenes? I notice that the credits are more yellow-ish then white.
The skies are pretty washed out towards white in the desert scenes, but there is a bit of blue in there. What I don't see of the Blu-ray color is the orangish "haze", especially in skin tones. There is a bit more more yellow and especially red in some scenes.
I just received a new super 8 projector which has a brighter picture, I will try to capture a better image. If anyone has suggestions for scanning super 8 frames let me know.
litemakr said:
If anyone has suggestions for scanning super 8 frames let me know.
poita
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
_,,,^..^,,,_ said:
Indiana Jones trilogy restoration is into my "project drawer" since a long time (and, frankly, I'm afraid it will stay there for some months more...)
wowow video, laserdisc audio - actually english and italian; it will be a great thing to add german, spanish and french laserdisc audio as well!
What do you think?
I'd love to see this! I would suggest Wowow video with
Wowow audio (Dolby 6 track mix(?))
Laserdisc audio (Dolby 4 track mix)
Blu-Ray remix
Alternate/early mix (which I believe only exists in mono on certain 16mm and Super 8mm prints)
Foreign language mixes (most of which use the alternate mix as a base)
saw all three films a couple years back at the Prince Charles Cinema in London. all original 35mm prints as well. Can't remember specific details but Last Crusade was DAMN LOUD!
Join the dark side… and get a free cookie!
I need to see it there next time they show it, but they never answer on Facebook anymore if what they are showing is 35mm or not
I tried a little experiment with Last Crusade (Christmas downtime), working with BR and moving closer to the 70mm frame but trying not to go as orange as the 70mm (keeping skies blue):
BR/BR with yellow/BR with yellow and red (orange)
Actually the bottom one is nice
dvdmike said:
I need to see it there next time they show it, but they never answer on Facebook anymore if what they are showing is 35mm or not
last time I saw them, the advertisement stated they were 35mm prints. Next time they come on the schedule, I'll FB / tweet them
Temple of Doom is the censored version FYI
Join the dark side… and get a free cookie!
So it was definitely the 35mm then, there was no HD version they could show that would be cut
dvdmike said:
Actually the bottom one is nice
I think they both look great. The bottom one is maybe a little bit too red on my monitor, otherwise still good.
Have any of you guys checked out my Raiders of the Lost Ark V2 regrade? I'm personally also in the camp that believes that the blu-ray more closely reflects what was shown in the cinema than the japanese WOWOW release that has always seemed far too blue and cold feeling for me.
I did try regrading the WOWOW release to get a more balanced natural looking release of Raiders of the Lost Ark than the blu-ray but I wasn't able to get anything that I was happy with.
Thanks for the comments on the Last Crusade pics. I agree that the 70mm pic has got to be totally wrong. But I don't think the two pics I presented are anymore right. I was just a test to get more orange like the 70mm but keep the skies blue.
(Ironically if I recall correctly the beginning of LC was shot in Arches National Park in Moab Utah. A place I've been many times. And yes it does look orange but sometimes red if that mattered and it doesn't).
Hey kk650 I'd love to look at your regrade. You have any comparison pics?
PDB said:
Hey kk650 I'd love to look at your regrade. You have any comparison pics?
I do. With the V2 release I really adjusted fleshtones more than anything, I felt they were far too red on the blu-ray, making everybody look sunburned. The overall warm feel remains similar to the blu-ray though. Here are four screencap comparisons:
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85227
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85228
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85229
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85230
Very much looking forward to your Alien, Aliens and Blade Runner projects BTW, they're what i'm looking forward to most on this site :)
kk650 said:
PDB said:
Hey kk650 I'd love to look at your regrade. You have any comparison pics?
I do. With the V2 release I really adjusted fleshtones more than anything, I felt they were far too red on the blu-ray, making everybody look sunburned. The overall warm feel remains similar to the blu-ray though. Here are four screencap comparisons:
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85227
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85228
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85229
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/85230
Very much looking forward to your Alien, Aliens and Blade Runner projects BTW, they're what i'm looking forward to most on this site :)
The problem with regrading the blu ray is that some shots are so washed out or over exposed that is it impossible to recover the detail. In some spots the skin is so orange that details such as cuts and wounds are muted beyond recovery. You would be better off regrading the wowow because it doesn't have that problem for the most part.