Bingowings said:
SilverWook said:
And "japs" is considered an offensive term in the U.S., just so you know.
It's offensive to UK people of Japanese origin too, which is why I used the term. The stereotype in the PT was offensive, contextually the use of the term makes sense to describe it.
Although I doubt I'd ever use the word in any context (wife is Japanese), I totally understood why you used it when you did.
TV's Frink says : This strikes me as a bad reason to use an offensive term, but whatever.
Wazzles says: I agree, it just sounds more like an excuse.
Think what you like I used the term to illustrate a point , maybe I should have used inverted commas or some other punctuation mark to make it easier to see.
But if you prefer to think me as as a closet racist who uses racist epithets in comment against racism as some sort of exercise in triple think I doubt if anything I could write would dissuade you.
The bottom line is almost every post I've made in this thread has been on topic. Perhaps if there was more of that and less finger pointing the thread would be more interesting to read.
So the droids are they a stereotype same sex couple or just funny robots?
I don't think you are racist, I just think it's a bad idea to use the term regardless of your contextual reasoning. But like I said, whatever.
And what do you think about Star Wars stereotypes?
I don't think you're racist. I was only concerned about drama ensuing given what happened when someone used "autism" a while back.
The droids are just bickering friends. I think the gay couple thing may have started with Mad Magazine's parody, which made Threepio limp wristed, and Artoo complaining he was stuck with a "f*g robot". I'm amazed that it was reprinted around the 20th anniversary with that word intact.
I didn't hear or see any gay references to the droids again until The Simpsons.
Where were you in '77?
Bingowings said:
So the droids are they a stereotype same sex couple or just funny robots?
Funny robots.
chyron8472 said:
So wait, let me get this straight: You love TOS and the the TOS movies;
"Really like" is a more accurate descriptor than "love". And I'd place the TOS films (II, III, & VI in particular) before TOS itself.
you kinda sorta maybe like a few DS9 episodes a bit;
I like DS9 in general. In fact, I think its the only ST series that ever succeeded in realizing its full potential. It's only the technobabble and the stupid "Space Viking" Klingons inherited from TNG that I actively dislike.
you don't like TNG much (likely based on watching the earlier seasons);
I like 50% of TNG and I hate 50% of TNG. While the characters and storylines do improve significantly after the second season, the show's still bogged down by the ludicrous technobabble, secular humanistic utopianism, Space Viking Klingons, and the plethora of stupid-looking rubber forehead aliens.
you can't be bothered with Voyager or Enterprise;
Correct. I have absolutely no interest in TNG-lite or Geri Ryan's "acting".
and you're making blanket judgements of the reboot movies based on internet fanboy rants that you've read regarding them and to how the aesthetic of the ship is not exactly the same.
I've read a number of reviews on the Abrams' movies, some more opinionated than others. Cutting through the bias, I'm still left with generically stupid Hollywood plots posing as Star Trek.
As for the nacelles comment, that was meant to be a tongue-in-cheek jab more than a serious evaluation of the films' merits. Still, it remains an ugly redesign nevertheless.
Well, that certainly makes it easy to make a movie you'd enjoy in a franchise that contains hundreds of hours of onscreen content when when you only like maybe 15% of it. Considering there are 79 TOS episodes out of more than 700 episodes in the entire franchise.
If they could do it in the '80s, they could do it now.
I hate to break it to you, but the TOS show primarily consisted of variations on less than half a dozen plots: such as the ship getting captured or threatened; the crew getting captured or threatened; robots wanting to destroy the universe but being defeated by being told to destroy themselves first; the captain (or trio) getting stranded on a hostile planet; a handful of at-the-time culturally relevant plot topics; et al.
And you're failing to tell me anything I didn't already glean from watching the series itself.
I never once said TOS was perfect or even great. TOS has it's flaws -- great flaws. The costume and set design is very much dated, the limited budget/special effects of the time didn't allow the creators to create aliens that looked all that alien, and the lack of recurring characters, ongoing storylines, and character development severely hampered storytelling possibilities.
For all that, though, I still take TOS over TNG and its smug self-righteousness and stupid technobabble anyday.
Also, Chekov didn't appear until the second season (of 3),
And this is an issue why? TOS probably wasn't the only series at that point to have acquired new characters over the course of its run; it certainly wasn't the last.
and Sulu, Uhura and Scotty only had minor bit parts compared to the almost constant screen presence of Kirk, Spock or McCoy.
Yes, that is another of TOS' flaws. I, too, got tired of seeing the show focus on the trio to the exclusion of most everyone else.
So yes, let's not explore what actually could have happend to Kirk when he cheated on the Kobayashi Maru test, though Prime Kirk claims he was awarded for original thinking; let's not ask ourselves why Prime Spock would have joined a mostly human Starfleet when he dislikes his human side so much;
Since Abramstrek takes place in a divergent timeline, exploring all that doesn't mean a damn thing since these aren't the "real" versions of the characters, this isn't the "real" ST Universe, and these aren't the "real" depictions of those events.
Not that I'd trust modern Hollywood to do a competent job of portraying any of those events/details even if they were to take place in the Prime Universe, anyway.
let's not address that Prime Uhura made overt romantic advances toward Prime Spock more than a few times in TOS;
The only "overt romantic advance" I ever noticed was a single moment in a single episode when Spock was playing his harp to Uhura's singing and they shared some mutually admirative looks. Beyond that, I don't recall a single other moment of overt romance between them.
The romantic tension between Spock and Nurse Chapel, on the other hand, was very much in play and something I never failed to notice from Day 1. If Spock was to explore a romantic relationship with anyone, it should have been with her, not Uhura.
and nevermind that the franchise needs new fans or that the Prime universe is so mired in its own continuity that it became hard to write a good story that didn't conflict with them in some way.
There you go putting words in my mouth again. I never said the franchise wasn't in need of a reboot. In my more-or-less humble opinion, it certainly was. Such a reboot should have been spearheaded by someone like J. Michael Straczynski, though -- someone who's proven he can make smart modern science fiction without falling into the pitfalls of technobabble, rubber forehead aliens, etc. -- not a Star Wars fanboy who makes largely generic Hollywood productions who's even admitted that he wasn't a fan of Trek until he worked on the first movie.
Get a room, or take it to the Trek thread, please.
Where were you in '77?
This whole thread is a waste of time. I can't even remember what it was supposed to be about . . .
It's not rocket surgery hen, you just have to read the thread title :-D
"JJTrekWars: Not good for stereotypes"
Did I read that correctly?
SilverWook said:
The droids are just bickering friends. I think the gay couple thing may have started with Mad Magazine's parody, which made Threepio limp wristed, and Artoo complaining he was stuck with a "f*g robot". I'm amazed that it was reprinted around the 20th anniversary with that word intact.
I have a Mad Magazine Sci Fi special from the 1980's which reprints various stories and the word is intact. The Mad about Star Wars book from 2007 changes the word to 'gay'.
Guess it slipped by them in the 90's. Considering kids did read Mad back in the day, I'm surprised they used it in the first place.
Of course, we now live in an era where "schmuck" is bleeped out of old movies on tv. (Pretty sure I first saw that word in Mad, if not Cracked.) It only took the self appointed guardians of decency 40 years to look up what it means? ;)
Where were you in '77?
hairy_hen said:
"JJTrekWars: Not good for stereotypes"
Did I read that correctly?
Ha!
hairy_hen said:
"JJTrekWars: Not good for stereotypes"
Did I read that correctly?
No but there seems to be a lot of confusion along those lines. Some people seem to think it's a thread where one complains about posts not being on topic.
If this were true the 'on topicness' of certain respondents would a prime example of irony.
Moving on. Rather than discussing how the current films could be altered to be less reflective of offensive stereotypes (which is more of a fan-edit topic) how could future films (the sequels and the proposed spin-off movies and television shows) redress the balance?
Would positive discrimination in the writing and casting of mostly female characters for a project be a step in the right direction? Or hiring Peter Purves to do a terrible American accent on an alien :-D ?
The Clone Wars cartoon had much more featured female characters for example that weren't just there to give male characters 'a hard time'. They actually hired George Takei to do a Neimodian voice and it sounded more natural and not at all orientalistic. Incidentally in Germany they are given French accents and in France they are given Spanish accents.
I've only seen the first episode of Rebels so I can't really evaluate the characters yet.
It's not ironic. Rain on your wedding day is ironic.
Fun fact, my Grandpa fought in Europe, mostly Italy, during the War.
He once told me that you could tell where a man fought by what racial slurs they used. He didn't know that 'Nip' was a racial slur until the 1970s, because men in the European theater of war used 'Jap,' and when he'd heard 'Nip' he'd assumed it was a normal term, like 'Brit.'
chyron8472 said:
Why though did George decide to dub the PT aliens instead of subtitle them?
It makes Chewie, Greedo and Jabba look stupid since everyone can speak English but them (nevermind the Ewoks, since they've never encountered offworlders). Ooh... and it makes me wonder which they're going to do for the sequels.
My guess is it was an ease-of-watching choice.
The Neimoidians are dubbed, I assumed because they have a LOT of dialogue. They also speak to eachother, meaning who conversations would be subtitled.
The Geonosians are subtitled because they speak so much less. Greedo and Jabba are both subtitled, and they all carry on conversations with people who speak English, so there's not to much reading involved.
TV's Frink said:
It's not ironic. Rain on your wedding day is ironic.
There is a Alanis Morissette thread in off-topic... probably.
I imagine an epithet becomes offensive when it's associated with a historic injustice or an association with propaganda. The terms, "Jap" and "Nip" both were used to characterise all Japanese people during WW2, including Americans of Japanese origin. Also the visual caricature which retrospectively so mires the otherwise classic Breakfast at Tiffany's is equally offensive for much the same reason. The terms 'Brit', 'Aussie', 'Kiwi' etc have no such association.
Bingowings said:
The terms 'Brit', 'Aussie', 'Kiwi' etc have no such association.
Thanks for clearing that up, you filthy limey.
Jock if you please :-P
The limey bit isn't an insult to the English is it?
Any English in the room upset with being full of Vitamin C?
TheBoost said:
Fun fact, my Grandpa fought in Europe, mostly Italy, during the War.
He once told me that you could tell where a man fought by what racial slurs they used. He didn't know that 'Nip' was a racial slur until the 1970s, because men in the European theater of war used 'Jap,' and when he'd heard 'Nip' he'd assumed it was a normal term, like 'Brit.'
That's interesting, as the 60's sitcom McHale's Navy does use "nip" and "nips", but I don't think they ever say "jap". It's set during W.W. II of course. It's been airing on one of the retro tv channels the past few years. I can't recall if Hogan's Heroes used "kraut" often.
I do recall an old tv Guide article about the 80's series Tales of The Gold Monkey, (set just before the war) where they were scrupulously avoiding using "Japs" in the scripts in spite of the setting. Derogatory terms for Nazis were okay, but characters couldn't use German in that context.
Funny how in TCW, clone troopers often call battle droids, "clankers" but apparently never utter slang terms for any of their flesh and blood opponents. ;)
Where were you in '77?
SilverWook said: Funny how in TCW, clone troopers often call battle droids, "clankers" but apparently never utter slang terms for any of their flesh and blood opponents. ;)
In the films the use of the term, "Their kind" could be applied to any oppressed minority.
David Fincher is apparently keen on exploring the slavery aspect of the droids of the Star Wars universe.
Something I would extend to the Clone Troopers as well which has been explored to some extent in the Clone Wars series.
Well if droids are slaves, so is just about every other sentient robot or android character that's ever appeared in SF movies and tv. Data is the rare exception.
Luke's somewhat different attitude toward his robot friends may have been shaped by working on the farm and being more "hands on" with them than even his uncle. Yet, he still sends them on dangerous errands.
One of my favorite story arcs in the old Marvel books was that of Valance the bounty hunter. He had a unique hatred of droids, (and relished blasting them to bits) but eventually had a change of heart, thanks to a certain protocol droid.
Where were you in '77?
Bingowings said:
TV's Frink said:
It's not ironic. Rain on your wedding day is ironic.
There is a Alanis Morissette thread in off-topic... probably.
Why yes, yes there is.
http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Happy-Birthday-Alanis/topic/14272/
Y'all will have to wait 'til the 1st of June to post in it, though. =P