'Raiders of the Lost Ark' - bluray and colour timing changes (Released) — Page 8

First shot 

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/102492

Second

http://s10.postimg.org/nvs66he55/1_Indiana_Jones_and_the_Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark.png

dvdmike said:

First shot 

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/102492

Second

http://s10.postimg.org/nvs66he55/1_Indiana_Jones_and_the_Raiders_of_the_Lost_Ark.png

 Thanks, those both look great. I need to find the wowow version. 

@ litemakr

check your private messages.

I was able to download the wowow version (thanks stretch009!) and sample several scenes. It looks very accurate to me. I have seen the movie many, many times over the years on 35mm, 16mm and Super 8mm and that is pretty close to what it should look like. It's warmer than the Lowry DVD and HD version, but not garishly orange like the blu ray. The gamma is correct, I didn't notice any crushed blacks or blown out bright areas like on the blu. It's a bit over sharpened, but still very nice for an HD broadcast. The soundtrack is neither the DVD nor the Blu ray version, I think it is original but can't say for sure. The surrounds seem a bit loud. I have audio tapes I personally recorded as a kid during Raiders' first run, one of the mono mix and one of the dolby stereo mix.  I could dig those out and compare sections.  I just bought a Super 8 selected scenes version off of eBay and I should have it this weekend. I'm curious to see how that compares. One of these days I will have a 16mm print. 

Does anyone know the source of this broadcast? It seems odd that this version was done and then another scan was done and re-timed for the blu ray. Maybe the same scan was used for both?

It was on wowow quite a lot a few years back.

The new master is said to be a brand new station the art 4k scan, but I never bought that.

There is no extra detail in the new scan 

There might be in the actual scan, but is obscured by DNR and the orange haze. Looking at the screenshot comparison of Belloq someone posted it looks like he has an extra layer of makeup on in the blu-ray cap. 

Williarob said:

Probably not much use as a color reference as it's from an old faded 35mm trailer reel, but still fun to watch:

http://www.thestarwarstrilogy.com/starwars/post/2014/12/02/Raiders-of-the-Lost-Ark-35mm-Trailer-in-HD

 Br the fading it looks like the LP master 

litemakr, you have a recording of the mono mix? I'm surprused to hear of it being used in theaters, I thought all 35mm prints were Dolby by 1981.

Does it have the alternate Jock voice heard at 1:00 in this documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmLDNk8MbLs

Waaaay back in the 90s, Treadwell (I think) mentioned hearing a different Jock voice on a 16mm print. When that DVD featurette came out, I assumed this voice is what he was talking about.

I know that 16mm prints of Empire had the rarer mono mix, so I'd believe a mono mix of Raiders being on 16mm prints of that...but on theatrical prints? That I've never heard...

Quick and dirty 

TServo2049 said:

litemakr, you have a recording of the mono mix? I'm surprused to hear of it being used in theaters, I thought all 35mm prints were Dolby by 1981.

Does it have the alternate Jock voice heard at 1:00 in this documentary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmLDNk8MbLs

Waaaay back in the 90s, Treadwell (I think) mentioned hearing a different Jock voice on a 16mm print. When that DVD featurette came out, I assumed this voice is what he was talking about.

I know that 16mm prints of Empire had the rarer mono mix, so I'd believe a mono mix of Raiders being on 16mm prints of that...but on theatrical prints? That I've never heard...

You are probably right. The theater was a mono theater, but maybe is was just the regular dolby mix played in mono.  I always assumed it was a separate but similar mix, but I don't know of any differences offhand aside from surround effects. I will dig out the tapes and check Jock's voice, but I don't think it is different.

I do know that there is a completely different mix for Raiders which was used for some 16mm prints and is the base for most non-english mixes. There are many differences in sound effects and music editing. The music during the ark opening is edited very differently once the ghosts emerge from the ark. You can hear this mix on the French and Portuguese audio tracks on the blu ray, it's rather fascinating. I am guessing it was an early mix because it isn't as polished. Unfortunately I don't have an english version of that mix, so I can't say if Jock's voice is different. I have only heard it in english once, on a 16mm screening. The other 16mm print I have seen had the theatrical mix (in mono).

Curiously the featurettes for Raiders on music, sound and visual effects use this mix and in mono. I thought it was really odd that they used an alternate mono mix to demo sound effects and music. Especially when that mix does have stereo stems (used on the foreign mixes) Perhaps the theatrical stems were not available?

I just watched the clip you posted and that sounds like the alternate mix in mono. I guess they used it for all of the special features where they needed separate stems. 

dvdmike said:

Quick and dirty 

 Nice. Is that the Wowow version?

It is indeed, it's the only version I will watch 

dvdmike said:

It is indeed, it's the only version I will watch 

Watched the whole thing tonight and I agree. I will never watch the bluray again.

Turisu said:

Well after all these ringing endorsements from people that clearly know this movie a lot better than I do, I've decided to crack and swap my BD for the wowow version.

I'm guessing rutracker is the place to go for this, but there are several versions on there and I haven't a clue which is the version being discussed.

Any and all help much appreciated. :)

Check your PMs

It's a bit over-sharpened and there are still a couple of gamma issues with slightly blown out highlights, primarily in the Ark opening sequence. But they are less severe than the blu ray and the color is MUCH better, and pretty accurate to the 35mm version IMO. It's sharper than the blu in most places. The sound is the original mix from what I can tell, but the surrounds are too loud. I had a big smile on my face watching it last night. I have been so unhappy with the blu ray that it was a joy to watch.  

It would be interesting to know who did this version and why it was only shown in Japan. The HD master shown on US TV was the Lowry remaster (and now is the blu ray version). I wonder if this was the original 4k restoration and then Paramount felt they had to mess with it for the blu ray release by re-timing and remixing. 

litemakr said:

Turisu said:

Well after all these ringing endorsements from people that clearly know this movie a lot better than I do, I've decided to crack and swap my BD for the wowow version.

I'm guessing rutracker is the place to go for this, but there are several versions on there and I haven't a clue which is the version being discussed.

Any and all help much appreciated. :)

Check your PMs

It's a bit over-sharpened and there are still a couple of gamma issues with slightly blown out highlights, primarily in the Ark opening sequence. But they are less severe than the blu ray and the color is MUCH better, and pretty accurate to the 35mm version IMO. It's sharper than the blu in most places. The sound is the original mix from what I can tell, but the surrounds are too loud. I had a big smile on my face watching it last night. I have been so unhappy with the blu ray that it was a joy to watch.  

It would be interesting to know who did this version and why it was only shown in Japan. The HD master shown on US TV was the Lowry remaster (and now is the blu ray version). I wonder if this was the original 4k restoration and then Paramount felt they had to mess with it for the blu ray release by re-timing and remixing. 

 Laser Pacific did it 

Based on some googling it sounds like Laser Pacific did a Raiders restoration under Spielberg's supervision, which I assume is the Wowow version. Then Laser Pacific was bought by Technicolor, who then re-colored what I assume is the same scan for the blu ray. That makes sense to me, I don't think the blu is a different scan. And Technicolor is listed on the blu ray. The question is why did they change the color after creating an already excellent restoration? The only thing I can think of is to "modernize" the look to match Crystal Skull and somehow appeal to a modern audience. It must have been done late in the game because the trailer released to promote the blu-ray set has a restoration demo featuring the Laser Pacific color, not what was actually released on blu. 

The framing is not exactly the same and this said to be a new 4k scan, the film was colored to look like skull if you ask me 

msycamore said:

litemakr said:

Based on some googling it sounds like Laser Pacific did a Raiders restoration under Spielberg's supervision, which I assume is the Wowow version. Then Laser Pacific was bought by Technicolor, who then re-colored what I assume is the same scan for the blu ray. That makes sense to me, I don't think the blu is a different scan. And Technicolor is listed on the blu ray. The question is why did they change the color after creating an already excellent restoration? The only thing I can think of is to "modernize" the look to match Crystal Skull and somehow appeal to a modern audience. It must have been done late in the game because the trailer released to promote the blu-ray set has a restoration demo featuring the Laser Pacific color, not what was actually released on blu. 

Check out what I posted earlier in the thread: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Raiders-of-the-lost-ark-bluray-and-colour-timing-changes/post/633298/#TopicPost633298

As the link to the Pan American Clipper - matte shot isn't working any longer, here's a repost; http://caps-a-holic.com/hd_vergleiche/multi_comparison.php?disc1=1520&disc2=1519&cap1=14343&cap2=14327&art=full&image=2&hd_multiID=760&action=1&lossless=#vergleich (see removal of matte lines and tweaked water reflections in the Lowry DVD transfer). The same subtle digital tweaks seen in the 2003 DVD transfer are present in the Laser Pacific (Wowow HDTV-Broadcast) transfer.

Personally I vastly prefer the HDTV-Broadcast as well but there's clearly issues with both of them.

EDIT: Still, I guess a recycling of the same scan is a possibility despite the restored matte shot. Perhaps all the negativity surrounding the butchering of the Star Wars trilogy around the same time called for it. But then again, why restore that matte shot and keep the other tweaks? (A question that remains no matter how you look at it.)

Very interesting. It's also a good example of how flat the bluray is, even compared to the DVD. Not much orange there but the water is very teal. The comparison shot of Indy on the sub really demonstrates how washed out the sky is on the blu-ray. The shot of the warehouse is also much too bright on the blu.

It could be that all previous video versions (even wowow) were made from a print or internegative, which would have the original color timing and would explain why they are all pretty consistent. And the blu-ray was the first scan directly from the camera negative, which would require all new color timing. 

Btw, I noticed a new digital tweak that was made just for the blu ray: the first long shot of Indy and Marion against the night sky during the ark opening scene has been changed. They are tied to a light pole and the light has always been turned off in that shot. It's a mistake because it is on in the other shots. In the blu-ray it has been digitally altered to be turned on. Weird that it would be changed while the clipper shot is reinstated as the original.

I'll try to post screenshots later.

msycamore said:

EDIT: Still, I guess a recycling of the same scan is a possibility despite the restored matte shot. Perhaps all the negativity surrounding the butchering of the Star Wars trilogy around the same time called for it. But then again, why restore that matte shot and keep the other tweaks? (A question that remains no matter how you look at it.)

The fact there are any tweaks at all (not to mention sloppy, revisionist color timing and remixed sound) pretty much negates all of the hoopla Paramount and Spielberg fed the media about this being a meticulous restoration to the original theatrical version.

Yet again, I must bring up the fact that the low fade 35mm print of Raiders that turned up on eBay a while ago clearly showed a color timing that was very similar to the Bluray.

This film has always been gold-tinted.  Always.  The Bluray transfer is an attempt to recreate the original color timing, though since it was done digitally and not photochemically, it may not have always turned out exactly the same.  But it's in the ballpark, and its intentions were in the right place.

What you see on these other transfers is more akin to what was shot on the negative, before the initial color timing for interpositive would have taken place.  It also does not take into account that projection bulbs from that era were much warmer in tone than they are today.  The wowow transfer may be an accurate representation of what was actually photographed, but it does not represent how the film would have looked in theatres when it first came out.

This whole controversy reminds me of the time before Technicolor print references became available for Star Wars, and we didn't know what that film actually looked like originally.  Everybody thought the grey appearance of the Death Star on earlier home video releases was how it should have been, only to be disproved when it turned out the Death Star was actually quite blue in a lot of shots all along.  If the pictures from the eBay auction were to be posted here, the Bluray's undeniable resemblance to the film print could be seen by everyone.  I really wish now that I had saved them . . .