Idea: a 'Waterworld' Laserdisc Preservation? (* unfinished project - lots of info *) — Page 2

PM me if any one else wants a sample, dvdmike i'll send a link to you.

Got it, will have a look 

EDIT

it is a real 5.1 track, it is way too well mixed to not be, the surrounds are split and the center has dedicated info.

No way a machine did this automatically 

Double edit

Remembered I had the HD-DVD ripped, it is the same mix but the DTS blows it out of the water! 

I agree, this is a real 5.1 mix. So there never actually was a 4.0 mix, i guess?

Compared to the HD-DVD all channels have different sound information (levels/dynamic range is different, the LFE is virtually silent on the HD-DVD here, rears are quiete different):

DTS Cinema:

http://s1.directupload.net/images/130830/bcaqn5ic.png

DD+ HD-DVD:

http://s1.directupload.net/images/130830/ekwlfsn4.png

There may be a 4.0 mix but I am thinking we didn't hear it however 

dvdmike said:

Got it, will have a look 

 

EDIT

it is a real 5.1 track, it is way too well mixed to not be, the surrounds are split and the center has dedicated info.

No way a machine did this automatically 

 

If you're speaking about the DTS, the separation was done by a proggie that emulates the internal audio process of a DTS-6D machine .... far as I know. 

Jonno said:

Hmmm - re. the theatrical DTS, three possibilities here;

1 - Waterworld had 5.1 DTS theatrically (as suggested in the other thread by the guy who actually did the mix) and the 4.0 information is incorrect

2 - Shawn's 4.0 rip had to be remapped within 5.1 because the decoder dictated it, but it still only consists of four discrete channels of information - have you checked that the LFE has content and the surrounds are split?

3 - The encoder actually processed the channels to derive a full 5.1 spread (including frequency filtering for the LFE). Obviously this is an undesirable outcome if we're after preservation

Anyway, I'm sure Shawn can quickly clear this up. Taking a long view on the choice of tracks, I'd suggest the following:

Theatrical DTS
Theatrical Dolby SR stereo (as represented by the LD PCM)
Blu-ray DTS-HD MA (a modern home theatre mix in lossless format)

Plus any foreign language dubs, subtitles that people request? That should cover all the generations of this soundtrack, unless folks know something else about intermediate versions (e.g. laserdisc and DVD DTS).

The .aud files I have would probably have all the info for the 4.0 mix.  If we can figure out how to separate to just a 4.0 mix I'd be happy to send the files to DB.

:)

There is no way a program can separate the centre audio  that perfectly

dvdmike said:

There is no way a program can separate the centre audio  that perfectly

If the sample came from DoomBot, then yes, that's how it was done by me.

:)

So you remixed it to 5.1? Because the center info is exact to what the hd-dvd has and not just voice

dvdmike said:

So you remixed it to 5.1? Because the center info is exact to what the hd-dvd has and not just voice

There was no remixing done by me.  The proggie essentially separates the channels per the DTS cinema standard.  Now, once that is done it CAN be adjusted is usually needed for home use compared to cinema use.

Info:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~clamen/misc/movies/DTS.html

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/53274-Ok-guys-DTS-conversion-challenge-with-FACTORY-DTS-DISCS-!!

:)

Jetrell Fo said:

dvdmike said:

So you remixed it to 5.1? Because the center info is exact to what the hd-dvd has and not just voice

There was no remixing done by me.  The proggie essentially separates the channels per the DTS cinema standard.  Now, once that is done it CAN be adjusted is usually needed for home use compared to cinema use.

Info:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~clamen/misc/movies/DTS.html

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/53274-Ok-guys-DTS-conversion-challenge-with-FACTORY-DTS-DISCS-!!

:)

 

 

Why would it remix a 4.0 mix to 5.1 what would be the point? that is what I am getting at

dvdmike said:

Jetrell Fo said:

dvdmike said:

So you remixed it to 5.1? Because the center info is exact to what the hd-dvd has and not just voice

There was no remixing done by me.  The proggie essentially separates the channels per the DTS cinema standard.  Now, once that is done it CAN be adjusted is usually needed for home use compared to cinema use.

Info:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~clamen/misc/movies/DTS.html

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/53274-Ok-guys-DTS-conversion-challenge-with-FACTORY-DTS-DISCS-!!

:)

 

 

Why would it remix a 4.0 mix to 5.1 what would be the point? that is what I am getting at

It is possible that the 4.0 mix you speak of was for 70mm print (if it had one) showings.

adapter223 said:

hello, hope this helps You, I asked a guy who done the theatrical mix for Waterworld and he wrote this:

"When we mix for a film, we mix in a discrete mode, that being, we monitor without the Dolby or DTS matrix inserted into the monitors. For "Waterworld" we created a 5.1 mix for four formats: Dolby Digital, DTS, and SDDS and the 2 trk LT RT . I have no idea what happens once the project leaves for DVD mastering. It's done somewhere else, and sometimes not even on the studio lot. It's possible that the DVD made into a 5.0 was generated from the 2 trk Print Master."

This post from the other thread shows there was a 2 Trk LT RT mix done but I do not have it.  I have no information on what presentation the mix was created for.

There were Dolby SR prints for less well-equipped theatres - this was only 3 years after the arrival of Dolby Digital and 2 after DTS.

The laserdisc Dolby Surround should have that covered...

Jetrell Fo said:

dvdmike said:

Jetrell Fo said:

dvdmike said:

So you remixed it to 5.1? Because the center info is exact to what the hd-dvd has and not just voice

There was no remixing done by me.  The proggie essentially separates the channels per the DTS cinema standard.  Now, once that is done it CAN be adjusted is usually needed for home use compared to cinema use.

Info:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~clamen/misc/movies/DTS.html

http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/53274-Ok-guys-DTS-conversion-challenge-with-FACTORY-DTS-DISCS-!!

:)

 

 

Why would it remix a 4.0 mix to 5.1 what would be the point? that is what I am getting at

It is possible that the 4.0 mix you speak of was for 70mm print (if it had one) showings.

adapter223 said:

hello, hope this helps You, I asked a guy who done the theatrical mix for Waterworld and he wrote this:

"When we mix for a film, we mix in a discrete mode, that being, we monitor without the Dolby or DTS matrix inserted into the monitors. For "Waterworld" we created a 5.1 mix for four formats: Dolby Digital, DTS, and SDDS and the 2 trk LT RT . I have no idea what happens once the project leaves for DVD mastering. It's done somewhere else, and sometimes not even on the studio lot. It's possible that the DVD made into a 5.0 was generated from the 2 trk Print Master."

This post from the other thread shows there was a 2 Trk LT RT mix done but I do not have it.  I have no information on what presentation the mix was created for.

 

There was never a 70mm blow up but both lddb and this forum says it had a 4.0 theatrical track.

I am saying in no way is that cinema disc 4.0 it is way too well mixed to be a 4.0 track upmixed to 5.1.

I am saying it was always 5.1

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

dvdmike said:

There was never a 70mm blow up but both lddb and this forum says it had a 4.0 theatrical track.

I am saying in no way is that cinema disc 4.0 it is way too well mixed to be a 4.0 track upmixed to 5.1.

I am saying it was always 5.1

What if two DTS soundtracks actually exist, one 5.1 DTS-6 and one matrixed 4.0 DTS-S?!? Just a pure speculation...

THIS is possible.  I believe The Shadow has both a 5.1 and DTS-S .... these 2 I have though conversion of the DTS-S appears to be a different beast of sorts.

Waterworld  did have a dts-s mix I think hmmmmmmm 

Would there happen to be a HDTV broadcast of Waterworld? Even the Blu-ray is DNR'd. I know, not Laserdisc though.

According to lddb.com http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/09310/43118/Waterworld-%281995%29

A 4.0 channel DTS theatrical mix that was remixed to 5.1 at DTS insistence for the DTS LaserDisc release.

THat is where our confusion comes from.

No HDTV that looks any better than the HD-DVD

I didn't read the whole thread but I'm all in for an LD preservation uncompressed for WW.