captainsolo said:
Indeed it is Zorro. (still pissed about that limited DVD reissue a few years back, priced way out of reach for broke college students! Now I don't have $400 for ebaying a part of my childhood!)
I went through my many video copies in a few scenes. (Embassy VHS, Criterion CLV, DC LD, 97 DVD, 5 disc DVD UCE, 30th Anniv BD) Still working on my ATI HD750 card for captures but I can't get the darn thing to work.
The Embassy VHS is the same pan n' scan as the LD. Compared directly against the Criterion on my calibrated Trinitron reveals that the older transfer has a contrast boost which dials back some of the deeper color. The Criterion has better blacks and a deeper overall saturation in the color. For example the blue lighting in the opening interrogation is much bluer. The print source is also different, with the Embassy having damage inherent of a release print, and the Criterion seeming to come from a clean scope IP.
Comparing the IC and DC LDs against one another reveals that they really aren't that far apart. The DC LD is wonderfully transferred and benefits from the greater technology from apparently a fresh scan. It is far cleaner and in direct comparison has a fuller color depth than the Criterion IC presentation. It looks a bit more filmlike but otherwise looks very close to the Criterion issue. Imagine toning back the saturation level just a touch and increasing the depth. The DC has much deeper blacks and a greater clarity, but again this is likely from being a more modern scan than anything else.
Comparing the DC LD and DVD shows that the DVD has a red-pink push to it, that pops up in the opening skyline and the now reddish skin tones of Holden and Leon in the interrogation. The digital transfer is technologically superior but one has the awful digital noise look of early DVD and poor compression, and thus the CAV LD offers a more natural presentation and lacks the very slight red-pink push. The DVD is also cropped.
The archival branched DVD reveals a new far more detailed scan of the film that is conformed to all three versions. The biggest difference comes in how the lighting is captured, as from this point forward the film's lighting is no longer limited to NTSC standard and just in the way it comes across the screen in each scene drastically affects the way in which the color appears. The interrogation now alternates between a delicate white and blue light, and Deck's sushi joint has its lighting really carry over the fluorescence and is far closer to what we see in the altered Final Cut.
The Workprint despite its resurrected form from a deteriorated 70mm blowup is the real clue. The new transfer and color correction presents it in as best shape as possible. The color, contrast and brightness actually place it somewhere between the film print based Criterion and DC LDs and the newer transfers done from fresh scans for the Final Cut in 2007. The workprint has the filmic look and brightness levels of the old LDs despite being a new scan because it is film print sourced, but because it was a modern scan it is also able to show and display the greater detail in the intricate lighting scheme. Thus you actually have a representation of the film that has the greater clarity of the new scans with at least some of the look that was generated by printing back to film for release in 1982/1992.
The big difference between the film based transfers and new scans is in the brightness levels and how they work with the intricate lighting. The film printing seems to have darkened the image and taken some of the edge off the lighting in addition to deepening the color saturation. With the new scans the detail was far enhanced and the lighting able to fully work the way it was intended. But without the film transfer there was no manipulation of this through the printing process.
Just my two cents and a real 35mm frame could shed some potential light here. That is what we need to be sure of what was originally presented, as the 4K scan that sourced the Final Cut and presumably the archival versions on DVD/BD could have obviously been slightly manipulated to something more akin to Scott's preferences. For example, Deck's face while messing with chopsticks has bluish light all over it from everything 2006-onwards and is a regular skin tone on the LDs.
I did this as a break from working. Am I mad? ;)
Thanks for the that exhaustive breakdown captainsolo.
Sounds like I should reject the DC DVD out of hand. Too much early DVD-era problems. You said the the Criterion LD looks very similar to the DC LD. Is it similar enough to not be worth using as a source? In your recommendation is it worth me tracking down the DC LD to color grade against? Or if I have the Criterion, I'm good enough. I love the Criterion transfer and even though I feel the Criterion is probably more "true" to the original theatrical prints, I still want to do something with the Embassy transfer. Especially since its the oldest transfer and from a release print. If the Warner DC is different enough also, I want to get a hold of that too.
You mentioned the brightest/contrast differences between the film/LD transfers and the BDs. Do the film/LD transfers all seem to have a similar level of bright/contrast?
Its funny you point out the sushi scene. It is a mess to color correct. Widely different between the LDs and BDs. You and I have reached a similar conclusion. Its that scene and a few others that make me think that all of the BDs have been color corrected to a certain extent beyond what a native scan would be. Hell they would have to be made to match in order for the seamless branching to work.
Scanning a vintage 35mm print of BR would be a dream come true.