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Info: Terminator 2 - in search of the theatrical sound mix... — Page 5

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Still missing the "Lamborghini" laserdisc player (Pioneer HLD-X0)... maybe in the future I'll win the lottery! (^^,)

OK, let's stop here, we should not derail the thread - sorry dvdmike, forgive me... and, of course, offer is real!

Sadly my projects are lost due to an HDD crash… 😦 | [Fundamental Collection] thread | blog.spoRv.com | fan preservation forum: fanres.com

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 (Edited)

I've done a fairly comprehensive comparison of the 5.1 AC3 from the first DVD release (thanks to everyone who PM'd me about that) with the remixed Surround EX version found on subsequent releases.  I have absolutely no doubt that this in fact the original CDS mix, as disclord had indicated.

Gary Rydstrom's description of the differences between the two in the Widescreen Review article linked to above is accurate.  The remix has a lot more noticeable usage of the surround channels, and the amount of LFE bass (or 'boom', as they like to call it) is amped up considerably.  I only have a standard 5.1 setup since there's no room for additional surround speakers, but there was some interesting stuff going straight back that is certainly intended to appear in the EX channel.  Plenty of side to side panning in the rears as well, and the boom track made everything satisfyingly powerful without going overboard.  There's a lot to like about the remix, for sure.

In comparison, the original version may come across as being slightly disappointing in some ways.  There isn't as much bass in the explosions or gunfire, and the surround usage is more limited.  That's not to dismiss or impune it in any way, however, because it is a very good mix in its own right, and everything about the sound design that works in the remix sounds as good as it does because they 'got it right' originally.

As Rydstrom indicated, there are no changes in content between the two versions whatsoever.  None.  All of the sound effects are exactly the same, including the gunshots.  The balance between the various elements can be a bit different at times, but not hugely so: sometimes elements that were panned to the surrounds in the remix are emphasized with greater level than they were before, but never so much as to become overpowering.  The overall dynamic range is about the same in both, with a lot of transient power.

The original mix is definitely a real 5.1, not 4.1.  There is distinct usage of the stereo surrounds in certain scenes: more subtle and less frequent than the remix, but definitely there.  Note that this stereo panning only applies to sound effects and not to the music, which is heard as mono in the rears throughout.

From the way the bass is used, it is clear that this mix was intended to be used on 70mm prints, because it uses the same techniques that were employed on the boom tracks for other films before the advent of Dolby Digital.  Rather than containing only isolated instances of bass derived entirely from the sound effects, as is now customary, the boom channel contains a sum of all the bass from the entire mix, low-pass filtered at 125 Hz, and plays continuously throughout the entire movie.  Specific bass effects also appear for parts that warrant additional reinforcement, though not with the sort of levels heard in the newer version.  Because the boom track plays continuously, many scenes have a sort of 'rumbling undertone' to them, which gives an interesting effect that is a somewhat different than the remix.  The percussive nature of the score benefits from this.  (A similar, though less noticeable, undertone can be heard in the 1993 mixes of the Star Wars films, which the other versions do not have).

On the whole, the CDS mix is about what I expected it would be, but actually hearing it for the first time was very interesting.  I can see why Rydstrom wanted to remix it (and I think he did a very good job in doing so), but the original stands on its own merit as an example of excellence in the history of film sound.  Certainly it is worth preserving, and even considering the only copies released on home video are in AC3 at 384 kbps, the sound quality is surprisingly good.

(If it is to be used with any fan projects, I recommend using a method of synching to video that does not involve transcoding the AC3 through a second round of lossy compression, in order not to degrade it any more).

I think it's safe to say that some of the talk of differences between versions has been exaggerated.  I haven't heard the Dolby Stereo mix, but I'd very confidently wager that it would sound quite similar to the CDS overall.  That's all for now . . . but if there are any further questions about this, I'll be glad to answer them.

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Thanks for the write up hairy_hen. Your audio expertise knows no equal.

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Supposedly, the MUSE LD have the same CDS remix; but instead of 5.1 DD 384kbps, it has uncompressed 4 channel 15bit 32Khz PCM track... which *could* sound better in some ways than the DD counterpart... or not?

Sadly my projects are lost due to an HDD crash… 😦 | [Fundamental Collection] thread | blog.spoRv.com | fan preservation forum: fanres.com

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Supposedly, the MUSE LD have the same CDS remix; but instead of 5.1 DD 384kbps, it has uncompressed 4 channel 15bit 32Khz PCM track... which *could* sound better in some ways than the DD counterpart... or not?

I'll admit I don't know anything about MUSE tracks.  If it is 4 channels, that probably means it is an LCRS layout, meaning the stereo surround information will be summed to mono, and the boom track may be absent altogether.  (Though it could possibly be added to the L and R, but almost certainly at a reduced level from the six-track version.)

The 32 kHz sample rate is worrying . . . unless the anti-alias filtering is very good, there could be audible digital distortion happening in the treble range.  Whether this would be less objectionable than lossy compression is hard to say.  However, editing PCM is certainly easier than trying to resynchronize an AC3 stream without re-encoding.

Thanks for the write up hairy_hen. Your audio expertise knows no equal.

Heh well, I don't know if I'd go that far: I'm lucky enough to be mentored by one of the best music mixers in the world, whose knowledge of analog gear and instinctive ability to understand how a mix should sound are absolutely incredible.  Compared to him, I am an utter novice.

Still, I appreciate the sentiment.  ;)

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hairy_hen,

Thank you so much for your very detailed write up on T2 AC3 soundtrack.

But, curiously, owning this THX AC-3 DVD almost since release date, I've always been so disapointed with it's sound compared to the very first LaserDisc (http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/21958/LD68952-2/Terminator-2:-Judgment-Day-(1991) ), which I was used to.

The LD sounds so much warmer and fuller, while the DVD always seemed thinner and hollow, even if the mix is a bit more opened up.

(I'm sorry if my wording is not so technical, but I have a good hearing and have experienced these mixes on a nice setup).

I would appreciate it so much if you get a chance to analyse this LD mix and compare it to the DVD AC-3 or even the EX remixes.

ps: regarding the first AC3 DVD and the following EX remix, my impressions are right in line with your technical report.

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Laserdiscs, with their PCM audio, tended to sound better than DVDs, which usually had lossy soundtracks.

“That’s impossible, even for a computer!”

“You don't do ‘Star Wars’ in Dobly.”

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Here's a recap of the two different mixes using info taken here and there.

I assume there are only two mixes for T2, and no further remix was made after the UE remix?

Terminator 2 soundtracks history

1991 - CDS MIX

 

T2 - original Artisan DVD uses as sound master for the 5.1 Dolby Digital soundtrack the unlimited mix created for the Cinema Digital Sound prints. No other DVD or Blu-ray has used the CDS mix. The CDS mix has a more "quadraphonic" soundfield to it with lots of side-wall phantom imaging. You can hear the dramatic difference in the first few minutes of the film. The CDS mix is the best both in overall fidelity and in the amazing sound imaging - its almost holographic.

 

The first T2 DVD of the theatrical cut from Artisan uses the same 5.1 channel mix that was prepared for the 70mm Kodak/ORC Cinema Digital Sound prints. Although T2 was also release in 6-track mag 70mm, the CDS 5.1 mix was completely unlimited in dynamics and had deeper bass since 70mm mag can't go lower than about 30 Hz in the bass and can only have peaks about 16db or so above reference level.

 

The CDS mix had peaks +20db above reference and bass to below 20 Hz. Because CDS was basically brand new, the CDS mix for T2 was prepared separately from the 70mm 6-track mag version to take advantage of the CDS system.

 

For the DVD, Artisan used the CDS 5.1 digital master, which had been archived on the S-VHS ADAT format. CDS was a lossless 44.1kHz sampling, 16-bit system that used a modified form of Delta Modulation to pack the audio into a total bitrate of just over 5mbp/s.

 

 

Ultimate DVD remix

 

After locating all the materials of the film for Artisan Ultimate T2 DVD, Van brought in Gary Rydstrom, the movie's original sound designer and the re-recording mixer who had won two of his four Oscars for T2, to begin re-mixing the entire movie and adjust it to near-field listening environments. "We did the mix last November," Van recalls. He and Lightstorm representatives went to George Lucas' Skywalker Ranch to remix the movie's soundtrack for use on the DVD. It took them about a week to do the work needed for both versions of the film and several other elements for the disc. "Luckily in 1993 when we did the Special Edition Laserdisc, we tried to do all the audio materials in six track, which helped us immensely now."

 

The soundtrack for the previous DVD release of T2 was created using a Sony linear 6-track, but for this release, Van and Gary went back to the original source elements they found. The result is a brand new 5.1 Dolby Digital mix that even contains spatial information for an additional rear center speaker as outlined in the Dolby Surround EX specifications. "The disc will actually contain the Dolby Digital 5.1 plus-EX track and a Dolby Digital 2.0 mix".

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Yes, it's that one. All the others have the 2000 remix in various bitrates.

I think that DVD is probably the best preservation of the CDS mix, it's at 384kbps 

The laserdiscs mostly have the Dolby Surround mix, there were a few with the CDS mix in AC3 but due to the way those early AC3 laserdiscs were, it's probably a pain to get all the tracks ripped.

This is the LD version of the DVD

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/21959/LD68952-2DD/Terminator-2:-Judgment-Day-(1991)

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Stamper said:

Yes, it's that one. All the others have the 2000 remix in various bitrates.

I think that DVD is probably the best preservation of the CDS mix, it's at 384kbps 

The laserdiscs mostly have the Dolby Surround mix, there were a few with the CDS mix in AC3 but due to the way those early AC3 laserdiscs were, it's probably a pain to get all the tracks ripped.

This is the LD version of the DVD

http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/21959/LD68952-2DD/Terminator-2:-Judgment-Day-(1991)

 Thanks, Stamper!  I've thought about purchasing the DVD, but I just wanted to make sure... Thankfully, there are dozens of copies of this disc at local record shops.  :-D

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On the Terminator 2 Skynet Edition forum on blu-ray.com someone said they had a dvd that included the CDS Mix in full bitrate DTS.  From some searching it seems to be the R2 Japan-Geneon Special Edition.

http://www.dvdcompare.net/comparisons/film.php?fid=160#10

The DVD is unfortunately out of print and I can't find a rip of this specific DVD anywhere.  I messaged the guy on the forum if he would be willing to share but he won't respond.  The DVD looks like this and the picture he posted was of this same DVD.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/M7oAAMXQd75SJNaR/$T2eC16F,!ykFIenyQSh+BSJN,RONKQ~~60_57.JPG

Anyone have any knowledge of this disc and or have a copy or know of how to obtain this CDS Mix in DTS?  From what I gather it would be one of the best if not the best option for the CDS Mix rather than the AC3.

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Is this it? www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B00009K2G7/

I live in Japan and can get it used for the equivalent of like $3, I'll gladly send it to you if it does indeed have the CDS mix.

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I count more than two mixes.

Dolby stereo original mix

6 track dolby mix

5.1 CDS mix - used on theatrical LD and Artisan DVD

5.1 SE near field mix - all special edition releases.

6.1 Dolby EX / DTS-ES mix 

And they are not the exact same mixes. 

The changes may be subtle but they are distinct mixes.

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Nickeleye7 said:

On the Terminator 2 Skynet Edition forum on blu-ray.com someone said they had a dvd that included the CDS Mix in full bitrate DTS.  From some searching it seems to be the R2 Japan-Geneon Special Edition.

http://www.dvdcompare.net/comparisons/film.php?fid=160#10

The DVD is unfortunately out of print and I can't find a rip of this specific DVD anywhere.  I messaged the guy on the forum if he would be willing to share but he won't respond.  The DVD looks like this and the picture he posted was of this same DVD.

http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NzY4WDEwMjQ=/z/M7oAAMXQd75SJNaR/$T2eC16F,!ykFIenyQSh+BSJN,RONKQ~~60_57.JPG

Anyone have any knowledge of this disc and or have a copy or know of how to obtain this CDS Mix in DTS?  From what I gather it would be one of the best if not the best option for the CDS Mix rather than the AC3.

 I do have that R2 Geneon DVD. It has a very cool slipcase design. Let me know if I can be of any help.

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There appear to be 2 very similar R2 Japan releases with a 5.1 DTS track.

1. PIBF-1219: http://www.hmv.co.jp/artist_%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9F%E3%83%8D%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC_000000000115097/item_%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC%E3%83%9F%E3%83%8D%E3%83%BC%E3%82%BF%E3%83%BC2-DTS_566051

2. PIBF-91219: http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_SOUNDTRACK_000000000115097/item_Terminator-2-Judgment-Day_1987310

I own the 91219 release but have never seen the PIBF-1219. I am convinced that is the same release as PIBF-91219 but 91219 has a slip case. They seem to be identical specs but DVDCompare states there should be a commentary track on the disc which is nowhere to be found on 91219. There is only an .ac3, .dts, and a Japanese dubbed stereo track. It seems that the 5.1 DTS track in question here comes from these 2 releases by Pioneer. I am uploading the .ac3 and .dts files from the PIBF-91219 disc right now for review.

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I'm wondering which sound mix is best? And has anyone compared the best sound mix to the DTS 6.1 ES Ultimate Edition track?

I don't understand which mixes "are not the exact same mixes". Perhaps you meant this, however from the reviews below it seems like there are 2 different DD 5.1 EX mixes and the DTS 6.1 ES track is different than both of the DD 5.1 EX mixes.

This review mentions some of the Ultimate Edition sound remixing and recommends the DTS 6.1 ES track (for the Ultimate Edition):
"Gary Rydstrom, has remixed the audio to include compatibility with Dolby's new Surround EX scheme. ...

...

... with the DTS delivering a slightly wider and more unified soundstage. Clarity and resolution are expanded, creating a more natural-sounding audio environment. Certain sound cues become more aggressive in the DTS track. The slamming sound of the "truck grate wipe" at the end of the opening credits, for example, is sharper and lingers longer. ..." http://www.digitalbits.com/site_archive/reviews/t2ultimate.html


For the Ultimate Edition, this review also recommends the DTS 6.1 ES track:
"... the gunfire in chapter 51 become incredible, with punchy gunfire and some surround use. ..." http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/1023/terminator-2-ultimate-edition/

And from the same site, this review suggests the Extreme Edition has remixed sound: "... a new Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround EX track." http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/6559/t2-extreme-dvd/

dvdmike said:

...

Dolby stereo original mix

6 track dolby mix

5.1 CDS mix - used on theatrical LD and Artisan DVD

5.1 SE near field mix - all special edition releases.

6.1 Dolby EX / DTS-ES mix 

And they are not the exact same mixes. 

...

 

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None of them are the same, they just share the same Base.

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I'm interested in hearing the CDS mix. Can someone PM me that mix? I don't come 'round here often.

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sega3dmm said:

I'm interested in hearing the CDS mix. Can someone PM me that mix? I don't come 'round here often.

Really?  You don't come around here often yet now you want something?  Spend some time here .... maybe then someone might consider helping you out.

Yeesh, lazy gits.

:(

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sega3dmm said:

I'm interested in hearing the CDS mix. Can someone PM me that mix? I don't come 'round here often.

 The CDS mix is featured on the very first R1 DVD release in Dolby Digital 5.1 from 1997.

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kaosjm said:

sega3dmm said:

I'm interested in hearing the CDS mix. Can someone PM me that mix? I don't come 'round here often.

 The CDS mix is featured on the very first R1 DVD release in Dolby Digital 5.1 from 1997.

 Are you sure you don't mean 1998? I have an R1 DVD with that year on the packaging:

Notice how the "Live" image is NOT in the bottom right corner?

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In searching for the above image, I found these 2 things of interest:

http://people.theiapolis.com/actor-2PUR/arnold-schwarzenegger/gallery/arnold-schwarzenegger-as-the-terminator-in-1027911~1.html

http://people.theiapolis.com/actor-2PUR/arnold-schwarzenegger/gallery/arnold-schwarzenegger-as-the-terminator-in-1027911~3.html

http://people.theiapolis.com/actor-2PUR/arnold-schwarzenegger/gallery/arnold-schwarzenegger-as-the-terminator-in-1027915~1.html

http://people.theiapolis.com/actor-2PUR/arnold-schwarzenegger/gallery/arnold-schwarzenegger-as-the-terminator-in-1027915~3.html

Note both the change in color timing , as well as a cropped image. Neither of these have the typical "blue" color timing this film is known for. Can anyone identify which versions these 2 possibly come from?