Alien/Aliens Color Regrade (a WIP) — Page 4

_,,,^..^,,,_ said:

The Mother control room scene is a bit too saturated IMHO, but the BD is too pale - maybe something in between should be tested.

The Ash head scene made me think... as you wrote, Ash's top of the head is blue also in the BD, plus his shirt is not so pale when he is still "alive"... the BD seems to have the most natural color grading, but this should be not considered the "right" one... watching the 35mm frames, the LD it closer than the other ones, even if LD tends to blue and 35mm to green, but the others tend to be white.

(because I'm not using the usual display, and colors here are what they are, please take these notes with a grain of salt...)

 Good points all around. I think youtube made the colors a little darker/redder but it is still true to source. I will try a little lighter, toward the white and see how it plays. Thanks for the advice, Andrea and thanks for looking.

About the Ash scene, I can't say the LD is right (should it be white, blue or green?) at all but the BD is way, way too white. Especially since the shots don't match up. If anything based on the pics Jonno posted, I like the 99 best. 

I agree with you PDB, based on Jonno's post, the 99 DVD is by far the best.

BTW, congratulations on this effort, it's shaping up to be a fantastic project!

BDgeek said:

I agree with you PDB, based on Jonno's post, the 99 DVD is by far the best.

BTW, congratulations on this effort, it's shaping up to be a fantastic project!

 Thanks BDgeek! Although I like the 99 coloring, I'm going to keep the blue of the LD because of it's unique nature and the circumstantial evidence there was some sort of tint when filming

I know that color timing and real life colors are two different things but judging from the first screen grabs where we see Dallas around the table wearing the jacket and since I owned that RAF jacket I can tell you that the colors on bluray are the most faithful to real life (perhaps just a tad brighter), DVD close enough, laserdisc colors are completely off. Just a curiosity for you guys. Great job here. I didn't know there were so many different "color versions" of the same frigging movie!

I know that color timing and real life colors are two different things but judging from the first screen grabs where we see Dallas around the table wearing the jacket and since I owned that RAF jacket I can tell you that the colors on bluray are the most faithful to real life (perhaps just a tad brighter), DVD close enough, laserdisc colors are completely off.

Just a curiosity for you guys. Great job here. I didn't know there were so many different "color versions" of the same frigging movie!

That's right to a certain degree and wrong to a certain degree also.

Its always good to have this discussion. Unless someone has access to a non-faded print from 1979 (not just the negative which would not have final color timing), we will never know the true colors. And finding and scanning a non-faded print from the 70s with the bad Kodak film they had those years would be difficult.

Opposed to the the RAF jacket, you could also focus on the Nostromo model which is tinted blue in the BD. Having seen pics of the model I can say that's wrong. It was gray colored similar to the way it looks in the LD and 99 DVD. Like he said life and film are different.

I can't say the LD is the definitive color palette of Alien. I can't say that it is "right". All I can say, is that there is some evidence that it may be "righter" then the BD in certain spots. Jonno's scans, the fact it looks more 70's, etc. If it helps, treat it as a fun alternative to the BD and not the definitive version, that's what I'm doing.

I can also say the BD is not right either. In fact the more I watch, the more I start to see all the strange color inconsistencies. Look at the Ash head scene in that youtube clip I posted. In the BD white, in the LD blue. But the BD also has scenes with the back of Ash's head having a blue tint when shot facing Ripley. Did they forget to correct the blue out or did they put it in by accident? Or this, the BD and LD both have a orange/red tint:

BD/BD with LD Colors (Ignore the framing, I did this quickly)

But then the BD immediately loses it, tending more back to white for the helmet:

Then gains the tint back for a close up of the grappling hook and loses it again right after:

Very strange. It matches the LD pretty well in those tint scenes. Then goes its own way on a whim. Maybe instead of intentional, we have hit the era of lazy color correction.

On the subject of the jacket, I own one of those myself:

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Dolby-Digital-41-Surround-Alien-Anthology/post/579186/#TopicPost579186

That original dye (purple taupe) is notorious amongst Alien costume enthusiasts because it photographs so inconsistently in the film (the various light sources, filters and gels used by Scott don't help with this). So looking at screengrabs and saying, "that one looks the most like the real thing," isn't really useful; the question is which most looks like an original answer print, consistent or not.

The shuttle sequence is a very tough one to judge. I looked at the book stills for this scene, and wondered why the shots are so wildly varied in lighting; I only remembered when I checked the video versions that the scene is strobing from orange to white/blue throughout.

In short, and perhaps inevitably, the 1979 stills look just like the 1995 laserdisc. It's a very stylised sequence, with Ripley illuminated by the aggressive warning lights on her console; neutralising the colours just works against the intent of the scene. And doing so without consistency is just plain sloppy.

Mine wasn't a quote, it's the stupid forum on mobile that doesn't work well on my iphone.

Apologies, thxita - I didn't realise you were speaking for yourself there. I hope you see my point about that dye... there's a very long thread on RPF where folks have made their own and had trouble matching the colour when redyeing other versions (the grey variant is pretty uncommon, so many have tried to recreate it from a green or khaki jacket). The fact that the colour looks so different from shot to shot has caused some disagreements, to say the least.

I had to turn the pc on to answer a bit more extensively.

Considering that films always get a color timing "treatment", obviously what we find on the film print won't necessarily (probably never) match real life colours.

Also, you can't certainly judge from shots of models because those are the most heavily alterated in terms of colours, the interior stuff not as much.

Even with all the important limitations of such analysis in mind, I can still say that:

yes, the colour of those rare RAF jackets could be elusive for who hasn't owned one (like most of the people on the RPF who were judging on any picture from any source they found). Having had one I can still see what is reasonably correct or not. My observation is also based on other details such as the golden wing patch (which is an unlikely yellow in the LD as opposed to the real gold it's supposed to be and this is better represented in DVD and BD), the shoulder patch and the buttons (which are black in the original jacket, not exactly the colour shown in the LD).

The LD version, from a good few details I can spot, is the least faithful to "real life" look. I still think BD is too "bright" looking and it's not "right", probably they killed some colours in the making... but I would still say that between the DVD and the BD there is some better representation of what "could have been" to begin with. The '99 DVD in particular seems to be the most spot on, take it for what is worth.

Again, that's just an extra consideration for this thread. Obviously whatever you find in the film stock is LAW, but then again, also those have black fading out in time. I've seen an original copy of Empire Strikes back with all the black that had turned into brown (the film itself was crisp clear)

The reason certain copies of the film look more like 'real life' is that they were made from scans of the negative, and the actual, unbalanced colors of what was really on set are coming through.

Film prints are made from interpositives, which have the final color timing embedded into them.  This is what you'd actually see in the movie theatre, not the negative's raw colors.  Going back to the earliest generation source for a home video transfer is good for detail, but bad for color, because all the color timing information is lost and has to be done over again.  As we have often seen, the original colors are frequently disregarded when this happens, and the result looks nothing like it did on its initial release—even if it subjectively appears good or 'realistic'.

It seems we are all in agreement that to get the true look of Alien we would need a theatrical print from '79. Scanning from the negative, as hairy_hen points out, is often the best details but not the right colors.

Sorry, thxita I thought you were quoting someone about the jacket, the way the forum posted it. I fixed my reply to reflect that was not the case. Anyway, you are right the model's true color means nothing towards the true colors of the film but that is the same for the jacket as Jonno pointed out. My point with the model was you can't pick out any detail and say this points to the true colors. Which you already pointed out so I guess we agree.

The problem I have with the '99 DVD is that it is way too bright. Brighter then the BD and LD. You are seeing details that shouldn't be seen in a dark and scary movie. I also checked the shuttle scene to see if it had any tinting like the LD and it has none (or very, very little). So the 99 has no tinting, the BD has select scenes and the LD has it consistently through. Its very odd. I thought that maybe the '99 was a scan right off of the ON and the neutral tones and brightness reflected that but I found this last night:

LD/99 DVD/BD with LD colors

The remnants of the Nostromo's explosion are different on the BD. Its a few seconds longer and starts off more oval before thinning and then fading. On the DVD and LD it starts out thin and then fades. It doesn't look like a new effect or a re-composite so maybe something missing since the ON? Just an interesting note. 

Updating my progress. I finished the first go around color-grading. I watched the new video compared to the LD and found a few dozens scenes that need tweaking. So I'm working on that. The 4.1 is synced (obviously). the 5.1 Sensuround is synced and the Dolby Stereo/PCM 2.0 is being worked on. The goal is a BD, no menus (I can't make them) built with TSmuxer probably.

How would you like an isolated score to go with it?  I actually made one a few years ago using the Intrada 2-CD set, synched with the 2003 DVD release; though it has never been part of any fan project.  With a bit of further editing it could be made to line up with the Bluray video.

Some official releases of Alien do have music-only tracks, but the editing isn't always right and the sound quality is not as good as the Intrada CD version, which came from the master tapes and not from higher generation duplicates.

Since the film underwent a lot of editing after Jerry Goldsmith completed scoring—and because he and Ridley Scott had very great creative differences in their approach to how the music should be used—many scenes differ greatly from how the composer had conceived them.  I had to do a fair amount of editing to get the original score to line up with the actual movie, but this is the closest way to experience the music the way it was first intended to be.

If there is interest in including such a track in this project, I shall be glad to provide it.

hairy_hen said:

How would you like an isolated score to go with it?  I actually made one a few years ago using the Intrada 2-CD set, synched with the 2003 DVD release; though it has never been part of any fan project.  With a bit of further editing it could be made to line up with the Bluray video.

Some official releases of Alien do have music-only tracks, but the editing isn't always right and the sound quality is not as good as the Intrada CD version, which came from the master tapes and not from higher generation duplicates.

Since the film underwent a lot of editing after Jerry Goldsmith completed scoring—and because he and Ridley Scott had very great creative differences in their approach to how the music should be used—many scenes differ greatly from how the composer had conceived them.  I had to do a fair amount of editing to get the original score to line up with the actual movie, but this is the closest way to experience the music the way it was first intended to be.

If there is interest in including such a track in this project, I shall be glad to provide it.

 I would love to include it hairy_hen. That sounds like a fantastic addition. I actually never knew about the 2 disc Intrada soundtrack. I have the old 1 disc, so this will be a treat for me also, especially since it goes back to the original tapes. I assume it is PCM 2.0?

With the addition of the isolate score, and figuring a 25GB BD:

~1GB for the two 70mm tracks in AC3 5.1/4.1

~1.5 GB for the Dolby Stereo/Surround in PCM 2.0

~1.5 GB for the Isolated Score in PCM 2.0

So approximately 4 GB for the soundtracks. So that leaves 17-19 GB for video (depending on gigabyte vs gigabit, formatting, overhead, subs, etc).

Is this going to be call Alien Laserdisc HD edition? 

At this size, the bitrate should float at around 20 MBPS, which is pretty respectable.

thxita said:

Is this going to be call Alien Laserdisc HD edition? 

That's a good question. I'm open to ideas. I was think about Alien: The Theatrical Experience but I can only back that up with the sound, still not 100% sure how close the LD is to a 35mm release print. Its the theatrical cut with the BD's detail and LD's colors with audio from both sources. Some sort of title could be cobbled together from that.

nirbateman said:

At this size, the bitrate should float at around 20 MBPS, which is pretty respectable.

That's what I'm hopefully for. I don't want to compromise the video. Looks like the BD's original theatrical cut video is 22 GB sans the audio and subs. So this will be relatively close.

I hinted at the laserdisc in the name because obviously there is no real "theatrical" reference. It's a not bad name.

hairy_hen said:

Some official releases of Alien do have music-only tracks, but the editing isn't always right and the sound quality is not as good as the Intrada CD version, which came from the master tapes and not from higher generation duplicates.

 1999 DVD had the music-only option. I'm curious about your high quality source though!

StarThoughts said:

Would it be possible to encode the two PCM tracks, the LD Dolby Stereo track and hairy_hen's isolated score (awesome — makes this release even more exciting!!!!) with lossless compression to save more room for video? Would it matter?

It would matter because compressing the PCM to DTS-HD MA could save at least 1 GB in space, maybe more. That could be used for video, which is always a good thing. I don't have the DTS-HD MA encoder but I'm sure a kind soul could encode the tracks for me.

The problem is that I need a (free) Blu-ray authoring software that supports DTS-HD MA (or True). I was planning on using tsMuxer to build a basic BD and it only supports lossy and PCM. I believe multiAVCHD doesn't support lossless either (and is buggy to use). Not sure about AVCHDcoder. The only free software that I know that does support lossless is Easy BD lite and I could never get that to work properly. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

bigrob said:

I'd call it Alien - The 70mm Experience

well, without the slightly cropped AR (which is 2.20:1 IIRC for 70mm print?)

Ha that might be overpromising. I don't think I can duplicate a 70mm experience, soundtrack not withstanding. But it is a good title....

thxita said:

hairy_hen said:

Some official releases of Alien do have music-only tracks, but the editing isn't always right and the sound quality is not as good as the Intrada CD version, which came from the master tapes and not from higher generation duplicates.

 1999 DVD had the music-only option. I'm curious about your high quality source though!

Yeah I'm curious too. This sounds like it will trump the 99 music only track.

Couldn't Flac be used in the same manner to save space?

nirbateman said:

Couldn't Flac be used in the same manner to save space?

 Only if making a MKV. FLAC won't decode in a Blu-ray player. Its not part of the BD specs.

I'm using TsMuxeR GUI 1.10.6, and it supports dts-HDMA.

Beber said:

I'm using TsMuxeR GUI 1.10.6, and it supports dts-HDMA.

 Good to know. Last time I made a BD with tsmuxer, it didn't support it or just didn't work. Only DTS-HD, which is all it shows on its feature list and the changelog (which is very non-specific). I had to convert to PCM. I know it worked for Dolby True but its rare to find someone with an encoder for that. DTS-HD MA seems to be more common and more compatible.