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What did you think the Clone Wars were before you saw Episode II? — Page 2

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hairy_hen said:

It doesn't explicitly say anywhere that they ended that exact year.  However, Mr. Zahn did state that he asked Lucasfilm about it when he was first outlining the Thrawn books, and was told that the Clone Wars had taken place 35 years before the first movie.  Given that the Empire did not form until around the time of Luke's birth (about 15 years after this), the conclusion that the wars did not directly lead into the Emperor's takeover is obvious.  He must therefore have used the chaos and destruction they left in their wake to gradually create a politically advantageous situation for himself.

Isn't it possible that the Clone Wars as they were described to Zahn lasted 15 years?

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My copy of A Guide to the Star Wars Universe (2nd edition) identifies 35 BBY as the year the Clone Wars ended, but the year the wars actually began is never identified.

Personally, I go with the idea that the Clone Wars waged for almost half a century.

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Well, there are some things from the Bantam Spectra books that give hints at when it was:

  • In the Thrawn Trilogy, it mentions some Bpfasshi Jedi went rogue during the Clone Wars and were hunted by Yoda about 30-35 years before the book (20-25 BBY). Also, it says the Battle of Honoghr from the Clone Wars dates back to 35 BBY.
  • In Darksaber of the Callista trilogy, it states that the former Jedi Callista knew Obi-Wan as she refers to him as General Kenobi.
  • In I, Jedi, we're told by Hal Horn's recording that his father, the Jedi Nejaa Halcyon, fought in the Clone Wars and died shortly after, when Hal was ten. This could put the Clone Wars sometime close to 30 BBY as Hal's son, the famous X-Wing pilot and later Jedi Knight Corran Horn, was born around the same time as Luke.

Screw lightsabers, I’ll stick with regular swords. At least they won’t blow up in my face like this franchise has.

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Here's my timeline (keep in mind that the ANH screenplay describes Luke as 18 years old):

- 35 BBY or earlier: Clone Wars begin

- 35 BBY: Battle of Honoghr

- 30 BBY: Nejaa Halcyon dies

- 20-25 BBY: Bpfasshi incident

- 18 BBY: birth of the Empire, extermination of the Jedi, and birth of Leia and Luke

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darklordoftech said:

Here's my timeline (keep in mind that the ANH screenplay describes Luke as 18 years old):

- 35 BBY or earlier: Clone Wars begin

- 35 BBY: Battle of Honoghr

- 30 BBY: Nejaa Halcyon dies

- 20-25 BBY: Bpfasshi incident

- 18 BBY: birth of the Empire, extermination of the Jedi, and birth of Leia and Luke

Now that I think about it, you can have the Clone Wars end as early as 25 or 26 BBY. That way, the long period between its start and end can fit all of the events, including the Bpfasshi incident. With Nejaa Halcyon, he still dies then with his kid about 10 or 11 years old. By the time the Empire's rises (19 BBY), Halcyon's kid is 17. You can say Halcyon's kid married young (say 18 or 19) and had Corran Horn almost a year later (probably close to 17 or 16 BBY).

Screw lightsabers, I’ll stick with regular swords. At least they won’t blow up in my face like this franchise has.

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In The Star Wars, the Empire invades Alderaan in order to obtain Alderaan's cloning technology. In 1977, the Clone Wars may have been intended to be wars fought for possession of cloning technology rather than wars in which clones were combatants.

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The discussion on this thread is reminding me of the Kryptonian Clone Wars from the early post-Crisis Superman comics of the '80s, which itself was caused by issues over clone rights.

Over 100,000 years ago, Krypton had already developed scientific advancements far beyond those of present-day Earth, and within a few millennia had conquered disease, learned to delay the aging process, and perfected cloning; vast banks of non-sentient clones held multiple copies of each living Kryptonian so that replacement parts were always available in the case of injury. All Kryptonians were effectively immortal, "with all the strength and vigor of youth maintained," and enjoyed an idyllic, sensual existence in an Arcadian paradise.

However, this society was tipping toward decadence and eventually political strife that resulted from the debate as to whether clones should have rights (sparked by the presence of an alien missionary known as The Cleric). Eventually this disagreement led to open violent conflict, especially after it was openly discovered that a woman's cloned copy of herself was allowed to gain full sentience and to establish a full, normal life. However, when a young man (the original woman's son) had discovered that his fiance was this clone, he killed the clone and then publicly killed his mother, and also attempted his own suicide before being stopped. This key incident ignited the Clone Wars, during which Kryptonian science was turned to warfare and several super-weapons were developed and used. Among them was the device known as the Destroyer.

Although the Eradicator's effects (altering the DNA of all Kryptonian lifeforms so that they would instantly die upon leaving the planet) were felt immediately, the Destroyer's effects were possibly more significant: by the time the Kryptonian government admitted defeat and abolished the clone banks, a pro-clone rights terrorist faction known as Black Zero had started the Destroyer, a device which functioned as a giant nuclear gun, projecting massive streams of nuclear energy into the core of Krypton, intended to trigger an explosive chain reaction within Krypton's core almost immediately.

At the time, it was believed that although the use of the Destroyer resulted in a nuclear explosion which eliminated the post-Crisis city of Kandor, the device had been stopped before it could achieve planetary destruction (ironically, by an ancestor of Jor-El himself), but centuries later Jor-El would discover that the reaction had only been slowed to a nearly imperceptible rate and would eventually destroy the planet as intended.

With a few adjustments, I could see that same basic story working within the SW Universe.

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I honestly thought of the Clone Wars as a battle between the folks that became the rebellion and some other entity (clones) that had absolutely nothing to do with Palpatine or what became known as the Empire.  

I thought of the Clones as an extinct faction that had no relevance to the combatants in the OT.  I always thought of Anakin's seduction as being completely separate from the Clone Wars.  The Clones Wars, to me, was just an event that Anakin participated in and earned his notoriety.

It never once occurred to me the Clones were the good guys.

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luckydube56 said:

I honestly thought of the Clone Wars as a battle between the folks that became the rebellion and some other entity (clones) that had absolutely nothing to do with Palpatine or what became known as the Empire.  

In that case, where did you think that Palpatine and what became known as the Empire came from?

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darklordoftech said:

luckydube56 said:

I honestly thought of the Clone Wars as a battle between the folks that became the rebellion and some other entity (clones) that had absolutely nothing to do with Palpatine or what became known as the Empire.  

In that case, where did you think that Palpatine and what became known as the Empire came from?

 I thought Palpatine and the Empire was an offshoot of a rift between two sides of the victors of the Clone Wars.  

Like after the Clone Wars, two political factions on the victor's side bickered with each other.  Much like the PT actually but in the PT the Clones were a tool of good before they became comandeered by Palpatine.  I didnt see it that way in my mind.  There was no direct lineage in my mind between the clones and the stormtroopers.

I honestly just thought the Clones were its own violent and deadly faction that was quelled by the republic.  

And my perception of timelines relative to Anakin's life was much different than it turned out.  In my own version of the mythology, Anakin was turned to the dark side much later in life.  I dont know why.  In my version of the mythology, the PT would have actually been 4 to 6 films.  The first being his tragically difficult childhood, followed by a triumphant and beloved Anakin in his prime, followed by his eventual fall as he became older and more cynical as life began taking from him.  And in the grand scheme, the Clone Wars were a violent and historically significant event but really a footnote in Anakin's story arc.  

I dont know if that answers your question.  But when I first heard the term "Clone Wars" I didnt really try to map it all out.  I just thought of it as historically vague background noise.  To me the elements of the Empire had always existed and the rebels were merely those were cast out from it as sides were drawn in what was once a cooperative establishment.

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luckydube56 said:

darklordoftech said:

luckydube56 said:

I honestly thought of the Clone Wars as a battle between the folks that became the rebellion and some other entity (clones) that had absolutely nothing to do with Palpatine or what became known as the Empire.  

In that case, where did you think that Palpatine and what became known as the Empire came from?

 I thought Palpatine and the Empire was an offshoot of a rift between two sides of the victors of the Clone Wars.  

Like after the Clone Wars, two political factions on the victor's side bickered with each other.  Much like the PT actually but in the PT the Clones were a tool of good before they became comandeered by Palpatine.  I didnt see it that way in my mind.  There was no direct lineage in my mind between the clones and the stormtroopers.

I honestly just thought the Clones were its own violent and deadly faction that was quelled by the republic.  

And my perception of timelines relative to Anakin's life was much different than it turned out.  In my own version of the mythology, Anakin was turned to the dark side much later in life.  I dont know why.  In my version of the mythology, the PT would have actually been 4 to 6 films.  The first being his tragically difficult childhood, followed by a triumphant and beloved Anakin in his prime, followed by his eventual fall as he became older and more cynical as life began taking from him.  And in the grand scheme, the Clone Wars were a violent and historically significant event but really a footnote in Anakin's story arc.  

So if I'm getting this right, here's the sequence of events that you had in mind:

1. Clones attack Republic.

2. Anakin and Obi-Wan defeat the clones.

3. Many years later, Senator Palpatine runs for Chancellor and gets Anakin to support his campaign.

4. Palpatine becomes Chancellor.

5. Palpatine turns Anakin to the dark side and declares himself Emperor with the backing of the Stormtroopers and Moffs.

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In Zahn it would have been President of the Republic not Chancellor.  I guess Lucas wanted the Hitler parallels so chose chancellor.

All the way down to the Emperor  being Democratically elected amongst a throng of applause.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Wars with clones.

Not a war with droids and clones.

Obi-Wan didn't fight in the Droid & Clone War :-P

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But that was as Lucas explained to Spielberg was where the stormtroopers came from.  He had to create a backstory where the robot armies are not so good so they are replaced with clones.

Reminds me of the 1990's every action figure and background character had to have a backstory.

The prequels themselves are a backstory created in 1994 out of pretty much whole cloth.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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For me Clone Wars was a casual conflict fought between Republic and some other faction. I always imagined that the name "Clone" simply came from some cloning incident that triggered the war. I have never imagined something as stupid and boring as clone armies (which is one of the worst concepts of PT btw).

真実

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As a kid, I was always fascinated by mention of the Clone Wars.  It sounded like some ancient event cloaked in mystery, and lent an air of history to the Star Wars universe not unlike what we get in Dune with the Butlerian Jihad or any number of historic battles in The Lord of the Rings.

Later, having read the Dark Empire comics in the years between ROTJ and the prequels, I went along with the idea that the Dark Side caused Palpatine to rapidly age, and the clones in question were empty vessels for Palpatine to transfer his consciousness to.  The Clone Wars were therefore an attempt by the Jedi to destroy all of Palpatine's clone bodies, and therefore limit his power (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Empire_I).

“It’s a lot of fun… it’s a lot of fun to watch Star Wars.” – Bill Moyers

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In the cancelled Kenner toyline called Star Wars: the Epic Continues, the main villain was Atha Prime, an architect of the Clone Wars who exiled by the Emperor. You could say Atha Prime rebelled against the Republic, who were trying to seize his cloning tech and/or he attacked worlds using clone armies. Just a thought.

BTW, nice job DuracellEnergizer for using the concept in your PT rewrite. I really notice it until I saw the article on Atha Prime.

Screw lightsabers, I’ll stick with regular swords. At least they won’t blow up in my face like this franchise has.

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I just assumed that the clone wars was the conflict Palpatine used to come to power. I never thought the stormtroopers were clones, I just pictured the clones being some distant force that attacked the Republic, and were finally defeated, but at the cost of giving up the freedom of the Republic.

The Person in Question

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As someone who was 6 years old when that movie was released I just watched the original trilogy again and this time understood everything that was going on. When I saw Attack of the Clones announced on TV I thought the Stormtroopers came to attack the Republic and the Republic had to team up with the Droid army to fight them.