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Inf Wanted: Does a Six track mix with mono changes exist?

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 (Edited)

Does something like this exist? I prefer the mono mix of the film because it most closely resembles what most people heard in theaters and is arguably the most “complete” mix but I also like to make full use of my sound system. Some may think something like this is counterintuitive to wanting the original version of the film but I’d love it.

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I wish it did.  I tried making a 2-track version a few years ago and my head exploded.

"Right now the coffees are doing their final work." (Airi, Masked Rider Den-o episode 1)

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Well I guess I'll have to settle for the six track mix for now, but I would love it if this happened (@hairy_hen, if you're listening, I would be forever in your debt...)

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I have given thought to putting something like this together, but it would be quite difficult to pull off convincingly.  I don't think it's possible to integrate all of the changes in the mono mix into the six-track—there are too many ways in which the mono version was remixed differently for that to actually work.  Also, there are many additions for which there is probably no clean source that doesn't have other things mixed in with it, so they can't be separated out well enough.  But a hybrid, which sounds like the 70 for the most part but has some mono changes here and there, would certainly be possible.

Really, there are two different methods that could be used for something like this.  One is to keep it completely in upmixed stereo form the way it is now, just leaving in the '93 sound effects that came from the mono as well as splicing in bits from other sources.  The other would be to use the '97 mix (which has many mono mix effects in it already) in discrete 5.1 as the main source, deleting the SE changes that don't belong.  The latter method would be considerably more difficult in some ways, but possibly easier in others.  Currently, I am unable to decide which would yield better results (with 'better' being a highly subjective term in this case, since we're no longer preserving original mixes but instead delving into the realm of personal preference), so I've never made any attempt to start such a project.

I only like some of the changes in the mono version.  For example, C-3PO's extra line about the tractor beam is one I don't mind (I grew up listening to the '85 mix, which has this line in it), but "close the blast doors" annoys me every time I hear it.  In one of the above methods, it would stay in; but in the other, it certainly would not.  Maybe I should just do them both, to make things even more confusing.  ;)

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The stereo foreign music and effects track has most of the changes.

So, a new book came out and we learned so much, and it is called, “Anguilosaurus, Killer of the Living”.

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Would it be possible (/easy) to just integrate the dialog changes, hairy_hen?

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Would it be possible (/easy) to just integrate the dialog changes, hairy_hen?

This is actually the hardest part, for two reasons.  The first is that the only source for the alternate lines is the mono mix itself; and given that it is, well, mono, it has everything else mixed in with it as well.  Getting relatively clean copies of the dialog out of that might be possible—the Spectral Repair tool in iZotope RX 3 is really amazing, though this isn't really what it was designed for and it would be tedious and difficult at best.

The second reason is that the only mix of the film with the dialog confined entirely to the center channel is the DVD/Bluray version.  Obviously when it comes to upmixing stereo tracks as I have done, there will be crosstalk between channels, and thus removing dialog to replace it with something else doesn't work.  But when I investigated a while ago, I discovered that even the discrete 5.1 of the 1997 mix has some overlap of the dialog into the L and R channels, which means it was that way on the original 4-track master it was sourced from.  Thus in either method clean replacement of the dialog is pretty much out of the question without resorting to the terrible later remix for those sections, or trying to somehow remake them from scratch.

Because of this, any such thing would have to focus primarily on including sound effects from the mono mix, rather than dialog.

The stereo foreign music and effects track has most of the changes.

What track is this?

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Aren't a couple mono lines present in the Story of Star Wars album? I know "close the blast doors!" is in there.

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Where were you in '77?

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A hairyHen mix that includes "close the blast doors!" would be my version of the perfect SW mix.

I think opinion on that line depends on one's personal experience.  I saw the film in 1977 with mono mix 3 times, and that line (well, the line after it), drew laughs at every showing.  I remember when I saw the film in 70mm a month later, I was surprised not to hear the line.  And furious when it wasn't on the VHS tape!

"Close the blast doors!"
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At the same time, the foreign stereo track is missing a couple of the mono additions. The added breakdown noises to Red Leader's X-Wing crash are not present.

So, a new book came out and we learned so much, and it is called, “Anguilosaurus, Killer of the Living”.

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Tbh, I could live without the alternate takes/alternate voices, the things I really miss are "close the blast doors", the tractor beam line, the lack of that horrible echo effect in the chasm and some of the extra sound fx. A lot of those are on the BD/DVD mixes

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hairy_hen said:


Because of this, any such thing would have to focus primarily on including sound effects from the mono mix, rather than dialog.

Adywan managed to integrate quite a bit of mono mix dialog into the 5.1 mix for Star Wars Revisited. Some of the things he added are:

  • Alarm on Blockage Runner
  • Aunt Beru's voice
  • "Alright, check that side of the street. It's secure. Move on to the next one."
  • "Blast it Wedge, where are you?"

Now, I'm not an audio expert, but these were pretty seamless to me. Would it be possible to cannibalize Adywan's mix?

And, yes, HH, I am trying to convince you to take this on. :D

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Space Hunter M said:

At the same time, the foreign stereo track is missing a couple of the mono additions. The added breakdown noises to Red Leader's X-Wing crash are not present.

 I still have no idea what track you're referring to.  Can you elaborate?

Hmm . . . well, just from the few comments that have been made here, it is clear that opinions on which mono additions are important to the film and which are not vary widely.  Obviously there will be no consensus on this issue.  Nonetheless it may be helpful to determine which ones are generally viewed as being the most significant so I know what to focus on.  Keeping in mind, of course, that I can't possibly include them all, and that my own personal preference is likely to play a part as well.

I'd also like to hear some opinions about the two possible methods I outlined above.  Which do people prefer: the 70mm with some things added to it, or the '97 SE mix de-crappified?  Either one is a viable possibility for a potential hybrid version.

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What, nobody noticed that stuff like the French and German dubs have stuff like the Tantive alarm and the nosier S-Foil sounds? I figured that since all foreign dubs were stereo and had the changes, they could be of some use to this project.

So, a new book came out and we learned so much, and it is called, “Anguilosaurus, Killer of the Living”.

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Oh, that's what you meant.  Yeah, I've noticed that before, but the only way it would help anything is if I had them in lossless form.  Even then they could only be used sporadically at most.

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As long as it's 5.1, sounds clear, syncs to the theatrical and doesn't have annoying SE sounds like the Ronto roars and such I don't really care where it's sourced from because I'm afraid I don't have much of an ear for those things.

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hairy_hen said:

Hmm . . . well, just from the few comments that have been made here, it is clear that opinions on which mono additions are important to the film and which are not vary widely.  Obviously there will be no consensus on this issue.  Nonetheless it may be helpful to determine which ones are generally viewed as being the most significant so I know what to focus on.  Keeping in mind, of course, that I can't possibly include them all, and that my own personal preference is likely to play a part as well.

I'd also like to hear some opinions about the two possible methods I outlined above.  Which do people prefer: the 70mm with some things added to it, or the '97 SE mix de-crappified?  Either one is a viable possibility for a potential hybrid version.

 I love the blast door line as well as the alternate Aunt Buru takes. But adding any changes from the mono mix is cool.

In terms of the method, I think it comes down to how much work you want to invest in it. I imagine the '97 mix would take a lot of work to despecialize.

Erikstormtrooper said: Adywan managed to integrate quite a bit of mono mix dialog into the 5.1 mix for Star Wars Revisited.

IIRC, he used the 2004 mix, which keeps the dialogue in the center channel. I doubt Hairy_hen will want to touch the 2004 mix with anything less than a 20-foot pole.

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Out of curiosity, besides flipped rear channels, some unnecessary SFX additions/changes and a few gaffes, what's so bad about the DVD/BD mixes?

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I'd also like to hear some opinions about the two possible methods I outlined above.  Which do people prefer: the 70mm with some things added to it, or the '97 SE mix de-crappified?  Either one is a viable possibility for a potential hybrid version.

 I'd love the 1997 mix synced to the GOUT, with bits that don't match what's on screen fixed. I even put a rudimentary version of this together by merely cobbling together a few sources. 

I grew up with the '97 SE on VHS, so there are plenty of things from the sound mix that don't sound right when I watch the full-on OUT. The Falcon's computer sounds, and little bits like that. 

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hairy_hen said:


Which do people prefer: the 70mm with some things added to it, or the '97 SE mix de-crappified? 

Go with whichever one will be easier for you. Not to doubt your skills, but since this is the mono mix we're talking about here, my expectations for a highly polished result are not that high. I know I will love whatever you put out.

As to which of the changes to include, I say do as many as you can. In general, I'd prefer the dialog changes over the sound effect changes. I would imagine some changes will just be too hard and not worth it (like removing the intercom effect from the pilots during the Death Star attack).

Do you want us to vote on a list of exact changes?

You know of the rebellion against the Empire?

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For me, I'd be happy with just "close the blast doors" added into the surround mix. The echoes right before that would be nice but are fine. I don't care much about the tractor beam line personally.

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Yeah, close the blast doors and the removal of the echo effect in the swinging scene are the big ones for me. Stuff like removing the intercom effects would be really unnecessary imo.