The thread where we make enemies out of friends, aka the abortion debate thread — Page 35

Warb either ignore me or don't ignore me.

Ignoring me means not replying to what is quoted either as if you can't read everything I post you won't get the larger context.

I can't speak for the rest of the world but women I know who have been unfortunate enough to miscarry have been very sensitively treated. There is a strong chemical bond forged during a pregnancy along with the obvious physical one so neglecting women going through that sort of trauma is obscene.

The father may may not have a chemical or physical bond but he like the mother will have an emotional anticipation of the birth and the responsibilities and possibilities that come with it so where the pregnancy is desired the parents need more support if anything.

But that's because the parents are fully formed people with desires and expectations. A fetus, depending on it's stage of development will have different degrees of less. Much like animals so from the fetus's perspective, according to Bingo, it is as bad as a mouse dying.

Your retraction of your prior comment is much appreciated.

When I lost my baby, I was surrounded by family and friends who knew that we were expecting and wanted to support us during our time of loss. I was encouraged by those who knew for themselves the heartache we were experiencing…

But life just sort of… went on…

I joined some horrible unspoken club of women who have all had miscarriages yet no one really talks about the loss or acknowledges the baby.

There wasn’t a grave stone or a funeral or meals prepared for us for weeks. I wasn’t featured on the news or connected by the hospital to other mothers who had experienced similar heartache.

I was sent home to continue to live like my baby had never died – like there never was a baby.

This is exactly how it was for us.  Life is supposed to just go on as soon as possible.  And it's not possible.  Life is never the same again.

Having said that, I take issue with this idea that it's abortion's fault somehow.  The topics of miscarriage, stillbirth, and early infant death were not discussed back when abortion wasn't really discussed either.  It's more due to things like....

-people are afraid to bring up past pain
-people don't think you should be so upset because you didn't have much or any time with the baby
-people are uncomfortable with the subject

And so on. 

We know people who are fiercely pro-choice and acted like nothing ever happened to us.

Not everyone will react the same way or feel the same way either. That doesn't make them lesser people or potentially lesser parents.

Now I want to know what Warb said.

He thought, I thought that a woman losing a baby was worse than a mouse dying.

We know people who are fiercely pro-choice and acted like nothing ever happened to us.

 I think this is the problem that Ender was trying to point out.

Perhaps he meant to type "pro-life" but made a typo?

Oops, yes, typo.

In that case, please also remember you know a few pro life people online that do not act like nothing happened.

No, I know, and I appreciate it.

Bingowings said:

Not everyone will react the same way or feel the same way either. That doesn't make them lesser people or potentially lesser parents.

 Well, perhaps they don't react that way because they have no personality, in which case they are indeed lesser people.  I have a few neighbors with no personality ;)

Warbler said:

In that case, please also remember you know a few pro life people online that do not act like nothing happened.

 Ditto.  This sort of loss cannot be overcome easily.  I will reveal to you all that my wife has been on bed rest for the past 3+/- weeks due to vaginal bleeding and a fear of pending miscarriage.  We had an appointment on Thursday, and everything appears to be okay for the time being, though she is to remain on bed rest for another month to be sure.  But even the fear of losing our baby has truly had me scared out of my mind.  I can't imagine what it was like for you, TV's, and I pray I never have to face a choice as difficult as yours or long-lastingly painful.  Thanks for having shared your story.

I'll be praying for you and your family, Darth Ender.

I don't pray, so I'll just say I'm pulling for you.

darth_ender said:

Bingowings said:

Not everyone will react the same way or feel the same way either. That doesn't make them lesser people or potentially lesser parents.

 Well, perhaps they don't react that way because they have no personality, in which case they are indeed lesser people.  I have a few neighbors with no personality ;)

You probably need to get to know them better before you can make that sort of judgement though your savior suggests you reserve that effort for yourself.

Traumatised people can seem to be less responsive and some people who feel differently about the yet to be born are great parents to the born.

I hope the pregnancy situation resolves in a outcome favorable to all involved.

darth_ender said:

Warbler said:

In that case, please also remember you know a few pro life people online that do not act like nothing happened.

 Ditto.  This sort of loss cannot be overcome easily.  I will reveal to you all that my wife has been on bed rest for the past 3+/- weeks due to vaginal bleeding and a fear of pending miscarriage.  We had an appointment on Thursday, and everything appears to be okay for the time being, though she is to remain on bed rest for another month to be sure.  But even the fear of losing our baby has truly had me scared out of my mind.  I can't imagine what it was like for you, TV's, and I pray I never have to face a choice as difficult as yours or long-lastingly painful.  Thanks for having shared your story.

 I guessed you were dealing with something like that. I'm sorry to hear it ender. I'll keep you in my prayers as well.

Thanks for all the well wishes and prayers.  I believe it will be okay.

And Bingo, I was just teasing about the neighbors.  Truthfully, I hardly know any of them, as we recently moved to a new home.  My previous post was entirely a joke.  Thanks again for the well wishing.

We lost our first attempt through a miscarriage.  The emotion tied to such traumas are genuine.  Being excited about having a child because you want one and are willing to sacrifice to raise that child better than you were raised and then in a flash, it's done.  Yeah, I felt it too.  I believe it makes me a better parent to have allowed that emotion it's due.  

I don't speak for anyone but myself.

Thoughts of strength and peace sent your way ender.

Perhaps the following should be in the religion thread, but since it centres heavily on matters pertaining to abortion, I felt perhaps it would be best put here.

...

As some of you have probably already guessed, I've espoused a pro-choice stance when it comes to abortion in the past. It isn't really because I believe an underdeveloped embryo/fetus isn't a viable human and that the mother has the right to abort if she wishes; it's because I have a rather dim view of physical existence on this Earth.

Basically, I feel that existence on this world is one of suffering, that when one brings a child into this world, they not only bring more misery into this overpopulated, dying world, but they heap misery upon the child they've brought into this world, however unwittingly. I have felt, more often than not, that it is better not to ever be born into this world. I have felt that if there is an afterlife, it is best to skip right over this one and go straight to the end of the road to become one with God. That is why I've supported a person's right to have an abortion.

However, about a week ago, while I was lying in bed waiting to fall asleep, I began to wonder if perhaps aborting an unborn child doesn't spare them from the misery of this world. I began to wonder if God wanted people to be born into this world as some part of Its master plan -- I began to wonder if God incarnated souls into this material world so that they could live a life of physical suffering before finally graduating, so to speak, and passing on through into the spirit world. I began to wonder if abortion didn't just force the souls of the unborn to be reincarnated into another body, prolonging their suffering in this corrupted universe.

So what am I saying? I'm saying I don't consider myself pro-choice anymore. Of course, I don't consider myself pro-life, either. I suppose you could say I'm caught at a point somewhere between the two stances where they cancel each other out (if that makes any sense).

DuracellEnergizer said:

Basically, I feel that existence on this world is one of suffering, that when one brings a child into this world, they not only bring more misery into this overpopulated, dying world, but they heap misery upon the child they've brought into this world, however unwittingly. I have felt, more often than not, that it is better not to ever be born into this world. I have felt that if there is an afterlife, it is best to skip right over this one and go straight to the end of the road to become one with God. That is why I've supported a person's right to have an abortion.

However, about a week ago, while I was lying in bed waiting to fall asleep, I began to wonder if perhaps aborting an unborn child doesn't spare them from the misery of this world. I began to wonder if God wanted people to be born into this world as some part of Its master plan -- I began to wonder if God incarnated souls into this material world so that they could live a life of physical suffering before finally graduating, so to speak, and passing on through into the spirit world. I began to wonder if abortion didn't just force the souls of the unborn to be reincarnated into another body, prolonging their suffering in this corrupted universe.

 This is sort of the Jainist, Buddhist, and largely Hindu take on life/death/rebirth and the hope of a liberation from the cycle. Only in the case of Buddhists all life, including any Gods that might exist are all bound to the same wheel and Jainist (and Hindus) would consider the act of abortion to taint the spirit of the abortionist rather than damage the spiritual future of the unborn.

Seeing as souls, gods, reincarnation, Buddha consciousness etc can not be deduced or proven from the sort of evidence one would bring to a law court having them addressed in the sort of laws that would be brought into a law court doesn't make sense.

The 'sin' of adultery against a god shouldn't be brought to a court, the breach of civil contract can be and frequently is because you can prove someone signed it and you can prove someone broke the terms of that contract.

If you follow a religion you can voice disapproval of a religiously sanctioned act within the context of that religion but criminal law has to deal within legally definable vectors.

So if a state were to make abortion at some stage illegal it has to define what that means and define what the consequences of breaching that sanction are for a court to decide guilt or no guilt and for a judge to set a sentence if necessary.

It wouldn't be able to bring the soul of the baby or the wishes of a God to the attention of the court because there is no way of proving these things exist in any way beyond the minds of those who believe in such things.

Morality and Ethics a bit like religious beliefs are more a matter of personal conscience than a court room but the do come to bear in the law making process. By law makers considering them and voters voting for people who support policies that chime with their personal ethics and morals (but not their beliefs alone).

DE needs to enjoy the rainbows and unicorns once in a while.

Jetrell Fo said:

We lost our first attempt through a miscarriage.  The emotion tied to such traumas are genuine.  Being excited about having a child because you want one and are willing to sacrifice to raise that child better than you were raised and then in a flash, it's done.  Yeah, I felt it too.  I believe it makes me a better parent to have allowed that emotion it's due.  

I don't speak for anyone but myself.

Thoughts of strength and peace sent your way ender.

 I'm so sorry for your loss, but I'm glad you used the experience to your benefit rather than detriment.  I'm sure you are a better parent because of it.  Thanks for your thoughts :)

DuracellEnergizer said:

Perhaps the following should be in the religion thread, but since it centres heavily on matters pertaining to abortion, I felt perhaps it would be best put here.

...

As some of you have probably already guessed, I've espoused a pro-choice stance when it comes to abortion in the past. It isn't really because I believe an underdeveloped embryo/fetus isn't a viable human and that the mother has the right to abort if she wishes; it's because I have a rather dim view of physical existence on this Earth.

Basically, I feel that existence on this world is one of suffering, that when one brings a child into this world, they not only bring more misery into this overpopulated, dying world, but they heap misery upon the child they've brought into this world, however unwittingly. I have felt, more often than not, that it is better not to ever be born into this world. I have felt that if there is an afterlife, it is best to skip right over this one and go straight to the end of the road to become one with God. That is why I've supported a person's right to have an abortion.

However, about a week ago, while I was lying in bed waiting to fall asleep, I began to wonder if perhaps aborting an unborn child doesn't spare them from the misery of this world. I began to wonder if God wanted people to be born into this world as some part of Its master plan -- I began to wonder if God incarnated souls into this material world so that they could live a life of physical suffering before finally graduating, so to speak, and passing on through into the spirit world. I began to wonder if abortion didn't just force the souls of the unborn to be reincarnated into another body, prolonging their suffering in this corrupted universe.

So what am I saying? I'm saying I don't consider myself pro-choice anymore. Of course, I don't consider myself pro-life, either. I suppose you could say I'm caught at a point somewhere between the two stances where they cancel each other out (if that makes any sense).

 Assuming the existence of God (which I do), I can't imagine why he would create earth, create mankind, create a beautiful and loving means of procreation, and then be okay with us killing our offspring before their birth because this world sucks.  He knows this world is an awful place, but he also knows it is a beautiful place.  He knows that one person can make it more beautiful.  LDS theology teaches that this world was made for us to grow and learn and experience the good and the bad, and thus better appreciate the good.  If one believes in God, I can't see how they think He would be okay with abortion in most cases.

TV's Frink said:

DE needs to enjoy the rainbows and unicorns once in a while.

Oh, I enjoy rainbows. And unicorns make great steeds in battle, what with their horns serving as natural weapons and all. 

Nothing like the thrill of rushing at an enemy with a long firm horn between your legs.... *sorry*