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Flaws, plotholes, and "could-have-been-done-betters" in the OT (alternate plot points especially welcome) — Page 4

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imperialscum said:

Tack said:

I would have had a scene somewhere in the film of the Emperor, hidden in the shadows entirely, but just enough of a presence.

I like the absence of Emperor in ANH. I love how his character progression in OT. In the first film he is only mentioned in a way that it sparks your interest and get your imagination working. Then in the second film he makes short but interesting call to Vader, which further fuels expectations. And then he finally appears in last film and he is well acted and written.

 That's why I would keep him in the shadows. It would be a short scene, maybe only the ending of a conversation with Vader.

I agree that the buildup is handled very well, and I wouldn't have a full blown encounter to ruin that à la SE Jabba.

I’m just here because I’m driving tonight.

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Bingowings said:

I found/find it rather disturbing in a Edvard Munchish sort of way. I used to get a bit nervous as I approached that page and turned it rather quickly too.

Personally, I find the panel that follows it even more disturbing.

Luke's jaw should not open that wide! 

I’m just here because I’m driving tonight.

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I think that happens a lot in comics of the era. ;)

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Where were you in '77?

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imperialscum said:

I like the absence of Emperor in ANH. I love how his character progression in OT. In the first film he is only mentioned in a way that it sparks your interest and get your imagination working. Then in the second film he makes short but interesting call to Vader, which further fuels expectations. And then he finally appears in last film and he is well acted and written.

 I agree, and I wish Lucas took out Jabba in the ANH/SE cut.   The buildup of Jabba leading in ROTJ was the coolest thing as a kid.  You hear about him for 2 movies from Han Solo, and we finally get to see him in his lair in ROTJ.  The CGI addition in ANH/SE ruins all of that, plus its a totally redundent scene as Han and Greedo had the same conversation at the Cantina Bar! 

Boggles my mind at the things Lucas has done to these movies!

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RicOlie_2 said:

I think Han believed in the Force by then. He knew what a Jedi Knight was and believed that Luke was one when Chewie told him.

 Yes, he believed by then. He didn't until he saw Luke in action him liberating Han and in deleted Sandstorm scene he actually praised his efforts, so we could assume he acknowledged his powers.

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Battle of Coruscant instead of Battle of Endor. That way we would see the Empire's death.

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It would serve as a more plausible explanation for the Empire falling within a day.

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DuracellEnergizer said:

It would serve as a more plausible explanation for the Empire falling within a day.

Exactly. The Imperial Palace could take the place of the second Death Star.

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darklordoftech said:

Battle of Coruscant instead of Battle of Endor. That way we would see the Empire's death.

 This suggestion would have the best impact on the OT. Really.

Keep Circulating the Tapes.

END OF LINE

(It hasn’t happened yet)

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darklordoftech said:

Battle of Coruscant instead of Battle of Endor. That way we would see the Empire's death.

As of the standing storyline, Battle of Coruscant would be beyond ridiculous. Battle of Endor is an equivalent of Battle of Stalingrad and Battle of Coruscant would be an equivalent of Battle of Berlin. What are you suggesting is putting Battle of Berlin in 1942, under the existing historic context.

In addition it would be very boring and typical conclusion of the storyline. A concluding battle in a middle of nowhere makes it both refreshing and unique in terms of storyline and believable in terms of rebel victory. And by concluding I don't mean that this was the last battle in the war, but just in terms of trilogy, as this battle only trigged the Empire's gradual collapse.

真実

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For being one with the Force Obi-Wan seemed more out of tune with it than Luke in Return of the Jedi.

Obi-Wan wants Luke to kill Vader. Luke doesn't want to and eventually doesn't have to. Being a spirit residing within the Force Obi-Wan appears unable to foresee any other alternatives to their fight than Luke using lethal force. Whatever happened to trusting your feelings or wars not making one great?

Obi-Wan's line after Luke tells him he can't kill his father: "Then the Empire has already won." should have been left out and something else put in like "The alternatives to fighting Vader won't be easy but I'm not against you seeking them out."

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pablumatic said:

For being one with the Force Obi-Wan seemed more out of tune with it than Luke in Return of the Jedi.

Obi-Wan wants Luke to kill Vader. Luke doesn't want to and eventually doesn't have to. Being a spirit residing within the Force Obi-Wan appears unable to foresee any other alternatives to their fight than Luke using lethal force. Whatever happened to trusting your feelings or wars not making one great?

Obi-Wan's line after Luke tells him he can't kill his father: "Then the Empire has already won." should have been left out and something else put in like "The alternatives to fighting Vader won't be easy but I'm not against you seeking them out."

The point is that it was established that once you fall to the dark side there is no way back. Obi-Wan was just being realistic about it. Realistically, in this case an alternative to fighting was letting the Emperor win. Anakin being able to come back to the light side should be seen as an unique accomplishment.

The EU of course completely degraded this concept.

真実

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At the Pit of Carkoon, two changes:

- Jabba falls into the Sarlaac

- Leia strangles Boba Fett with her chain

It just makes sense to me that having this bloated slug fall into the ravening hole in the desert would make for an awesome moment.  Plus, you get the symmetry of the villain who likes to feed victims to monsters (the Rancor, the Sarlaac) getting a taste of his own medicine.

And, by having Fett die at Leia's hand, the baddest bounty hunter in the galaxy no longer dies by accident.  He's eliminated by a resourceful and deadly foe, not by the SW equivalent of slipping in the bathtub.

"It's my first day!"
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pablumatic said:

For being one with the Force Obi-Wan seemed more out of tune with it than Luke in Return of the Jedi.

Obi-Wan wants Luke to kill Vader. Luke doesn't want to and eventually doesn't have to. Being a spirit residing within the Force Obi-Wan appears unable to foresee any other alternatives to their fight than Luke using lethal force. Whatever happened to trusting your feelings or wars not making one great?

Obi-Wan's line after Luke tells him he can't kill his father: "Then the Empire has already won." should have been left out and something else put in like "The alternatives to fighting Vader won't be easy but I'm not against you seeking them out."

This is why I prefer to believe that becoming a Force ghost doesn't actually mean becoming one with the Force. 

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Hello everyone :)

Although I like all SW movies, I understand that there are quite few head scratching parts. Surprisingly there are more of them in OT for me than PT. Anyway here's my personal list (sorry if I missed the explanations):

*NEW HOPE:*

-Leia's lack of emotions concerning the destruction of her home planet with her family, friends, pets, etc. I understand that she has to be strong and all, but she doesn't even remember about it, not even ONCE in entire trilogy.

-Luke and Obi-Wan see nothing bad about leaving a droid who is carrying an extremely important information that can save billions outside the bar, knowing really well that the Stormtroopers are outside, searching. They even met them only few minutes ago, really close to the bar.

-Stormtroopers... Idiots. "Knocking on the door, locked, ok lets go then" thing. To hide from the evil empire... just lock the door. Also what were other troopers doing while Obi-Wan was Force persuading one of them? Just standing without finding anything suspicious. Ok.

-Why did Solo and Luke throw out Stormtroopers armor, their disguise? Because it stinks after trash? After trash compactor all their clothes should stink. Go to bathroom (should be on DS), wash, there you have some disguise back.

-Leia believes that the Empire is tracking Falcon, so... she goes right to the hidden rebel base instead of meeting with an agent, search for bugs, or figure out any other way to send the plans.

-Empire knows that rebels got the plans to the Death Star and know it's only weakness, so.... they do nothing about it. Seriously, why not cover the hole? Place ships over it? Board it up at least? No? Nothing? Ok.

-Death Star has only a handful of small fighters on it, although the ONLY weak point of DS1 is a small shaft that could use protection from smaller fighters. 

-Why flying in the trench of DS instead of flying directly to the pipe?

-Obi-Wan is hiding from the empire. Changes his name... but not the last name. And becomes local "weird guy" people know, all while still wearing Jedi robes (as we later saw in Return of the Jedi).

-Obi-Wan said that Jedi were using swords as a weapon. Sword against gun? We see how it works in Prequels, and it worked ok when Luke was fighting bunch of Jabba's people, but they weren't too efficient (even Boba, who was wasted in an extremely stupid way), or one trooper, but what if there are ten enemies with guns?

EMPIRE STRIKES BACK:

-It's been 3 years by cannon and Han still haven't payed Jabba? No wonder Hutt is pissed.

-Why flying in the direction of Empire fleet when the planet is round and space is limitless?

-Why empire is using walkers on a flat surface? They can be good on bad ways, with obstacles, but flat surface? Also they can be defeated by a strong rope. (But hey, they look cool.)

-Yoda is an extremely powerful Jedi, but won't take part in war due to... what? He could use Force in battles, stopping entire ships. Too old? Body doesn't matter, right? Damn, even in prequels Yoda told his old body to f-off and increased it's strength for a short time with a Force to fight. But he won't fught the Empire anymore because... destiny?

-Luke going to Cloud City. Yoda and Obi-Wan don't want him to go, saying that he is not ready and can be killed or turned by Vader. They don't tell the truth about Vader, although it's clear that it is just another possible reason for Luke to join him if Vader tells, what he actually does. Now imagine if Luke wasn't hanging above the shaft, but was cornered instead. The choice would have been between joining the father, only known family he had at the moment, or getting killed. Another thing about it is that Yoda says that if necessary Luke should sacrifice Han, Chewbacca and... Leia?! The "other" last hope? Even if Lucas was not going in Leia is sister way while making ESB, now we are looking at original TRILOGY, which is "flawless". So... kinda foolish, Yoda.

RETURN OF THE JEDI:

-By cannon it's been a year, right? Well, they weren't in a hurry to save Han.

-Why sending the generals of rebellion to save him personally instead of soldiers, or hiring professionals like bounty hunters who seem to have an easy access to Jabba? Honestly I am fine with this one, it's so we could watch the heroes of film having an adventure, not someone unknown, but I add it anyway.

-What the hell was Luke's plan to save Han? Why giving the sword to R2 if Luke wasn't going to give out weapons or anything like it anyway? He even Force chocked Gamoreans, so what's the point of hiding it in R2? It'd be great to have facing Jabba (and of course the rancor). What if Jabba ordered memory wipe for droids? Why sending in Leia to send Han, because even if she succeeded, they still would have to save droids? Bunch other questions, but I think you get the point. Lucas himself admitted that this "plan" was so the movie was longer, because the original script was too short. But hey, we have Leia in bikini, right?

-As I said before, Boba gets "flushed in a toiled".

-Luke knows that Leia has Force power, because she is his sister, which sounds awfully biological (and biology in Force makes fans of originals go crazy, just remember midi-chlorians, that were assigned the status of the Force by them only, but not by a single character in actual movies). And Luke turns out to be right, Leia IS strong in the Force... but somehow Vader wasn't able to sense in when she was standing right next to him earlier on Death Star and in Cloud City.

-The Emperor. Although he is one of my favorite characters in all saga, his actions in Ep.VI are questionable. So he wanted to lure rebels into trap. Good. But was it really necessary to give them real info on the new Death Star? Some fake info would be just as good, as long as they go where they are needed.

With great Force powers that allow him to foresee the future, he surely missed a lot, including a whole army of lethal rocks-throwing teddy bears (which can be a separate thing on the list).

And finally what was his plan to turn Luke into his servant? Turn him to the Dark Side by angering him? Ok, but even if that worked and Luke has turned, and even killed Vader in anger, why would he serve the Emperor and help him destroy the rebellion (friends)? Wouldn't he rather use the dark power (if fallen) to kill the asshole? Or Dark Side suddenly means serving him?

"Who I am is not important, my message is." Revan

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DarthJedi said:


-Leia's lack of emotions concerning the destruction of her home planet with her family, friends, pets, etc.

I would agree with that one.  For the record, it's handled much better in the NPR version of the story.  Leia is considerably upset and distraught over the loss.

 -Luke knows that Leia has Force power, because she is his sister........ but somehow Vader wasn't able to sense in when she was standing right next to him earlier on Death Star and in Cloud City.

This one gets a pass but only because the family connection hadn't been invented yet.  Until Lucas had to ham-fist his way out of writer's block between Empire and Return, Leia was an unrelated princess. 

All that sister bullshit came way late in the process.  He'd literally painted himself into a corner by filming the "There is another" scene in Empire - long before he had any idea who it would end up being.  Lame.

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What I've heard is that Lucas had planned for Luke to meet his twin sister in the sequel trilogy, who was the other, but when he decided not to make the sequel trilogy, he crammed everything into one episode.

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DarthJedi said:

Hello everyone :)

Although I like all SW movies, I understand that there are quite few head scratching parts. Surprisingly there are more of them in OT for me than PT. Anyway here's my personal list (sorry if I missed the explanations):

Thanks for sharing. I've never thought of some of these. Others are pretty common, but very true. There are some I don't think are errors, or were fine as they were, and I've commented on those.

*NEW HOPE:*

[snip] Also what were other troopers doing while Obi-Wan was Force persuading one of them? Just standing without finding anything suspicious. Ok.

Presumably Obi-Wan was able to extend his mind trick to all of them.

-Why did Solo and Luke throw out Stormtroopers armor, their disguise? Because it stinks after trash? After trash compactor all their clothes should stink. Go to bathroom (should be on DS), wash, there you have some disguise back.

If I'm not mistaken, they took their helmets off in the prison block, and weren't able to bring them with them when they dove into the trash compactor. Not to mention that Leia didn't have a disguise, nor did Chewie.

-Leia believes that the Empire is tracking Falcon, so... she goes right to the hidden rebel base instead of meeting with an agent, search for bugs, or figure out any other way to send the plans.

This one has a couple explanations, but none of them are satisfactory.

-Obi-Wan said that Jedi were using swords as a weapon. Sword against gun? We see how it works in Prequels, and it worked ok when Luke was fighting bunch of Jabba's people, but they weren't too efficient (even Boba, who was wasted in an extremely stupid way), or one trooper, but what if there are ten enemies with guns?

Well, they do have the power of the Force. I imagine that that helps them a bit.

EMPIRE STRIKES BACK:

-Why empire is using walkers on a flat surface? They can be good on bad ways, with obstacles, but flat surface? Also they can be defeated by a strong rope. (But hey, they look cool.)

Why not? It's a faster way to transport the troops, while keeping them sheltered. I don't know why they didn't just use something that could fly though.

-Yoda is an extremely powerful Jedi, but won't take part in war due to... what? He could use Force in battles, stopping entire ships. Too old? Body doesn't matter, right? Damn, even in prequels Yoda told his old body to f-off and increased it's strength for a short time with a Force to fight. But he won't fught the Empire anymore because... destiny?

He's a pacifist. Besides, he knows that even he isn't powerful enough to defeat the Empire. Remember, at 900 years old, he's probably pretty patient.

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Hello :)

-Mind Trick: It's a part of my "Stormtroopers kinda suck" problem. Although we can assume that Obi-Wan persuaded whole group, it still is just an assumption, and while I can accept it for explanation, there still are moments like "locked door" or inability to deal with a primitive tribe. The point is... Stormtroopers kinda suck, yeah...   :)

-Although it doesn't bug me too much with uniforms, still, there are hundreds if not thousands of troopers on DS. They don't use clones anymore looking at all 6, and if we just look at OT it only adds up to it: it's unlikely that every Stormtrooper knows each others face, so might be useful even without helmets (or could get them later). Could at least try to be all "yeah, here they are, we caught them, let us take them to cells" or something. :)  But I let this one slip, it really doesn't bother me to be honest. After all these are sci-fi adventure movies, not stealth spy or something.

-The swords: Yeah, clearly the Force improves their performance so they could use sword against guns. But originals don't show it nearly as well as PT. Lukes opponents with guns were "drunk" Boba and Stormtrooper (who are separate case), we also see Vader using his hands to block shots, which is cool, but 1)he is "level 80 dark lord" 2) he has only 2 hands, what if there were many guys shooting at once? Say whatever you want, but in PT, when we see Jedi taking out their lightsaber against a group (not an army like in II or III) of regular opponents with guns we're like "oh, guys, you're screwed, better drop guns and give up". Just on their own Originals don't give enough to clearly see that Jedi with a sword can kick major @ss against guns, we mostly assume it. So the actual "complain" is that it would be nicer to see real "Jedi at work", whether by Obi-Wan (when he was still alive) or by trained Luke, not for the sake of pure action, but to see how the hell did it work in the old Republic.

-Walkers: Yeah, why not something flying, or something with wheels? Something that can't be taken down by a rope. Also rebels say that Walkers armor is too strong for their blasters, but apparently it's not once the walker fell down, which is strange. But lets be serious, the real reason is that these machines look cool, like something non-Earth, something more alien. Movies are entertainment after all, even when they are thought provoking.

-Yoda: Surprisingly I get this part the best after watching Prequels and Clone Wars (Season 6), because Originals state that there's this cave that is strong with the Force (Dark Side in this case), they don't really state that entire planet Dagobah is strong. Yoda, living among such concentration of Force is invisible for Sith, keeping himself as one of last Jedi, as a teacher for Anakin's children. But I base this greatly on Prequel storyline. With Originals one can assume that Yoda is pacifist (as you just did) or too old (but isn't it just a body, which shouldn't matter?). With PT and CW we see that only Yoda and Kenobi were able to become Force Ghosts (Jinn was mostly just a voice), and that it was a rather new thing and thus they couldn't guarantee that it'll work, thus Yoda needed to be alive to teach for sure. If we had only OT it'd be safe to assume that all Jedi can do it. And if so why not spend last years of your body's existence to help fight the evil (not take down the Empire, just help; he was "a great warrior" after all) and then train Luke as a ghost (Kenobi was totally capable of providing wisdom after his death). So this complain is not a complain within full saga, but if we take only the OT, then it becomes a "head scratch".

"Who I am is not important, my message is." Revan

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pablumatic said:

For being one with the Force Obi-Wan seemed more out of tune with it than Luke in Return of the Jedi.

Obi-Wan wants Luke to kill Vader. Luke doesn't want to and eventually doesn't have to. Being a spirit residing within the Force Obi-Wan appears unable to foresee any other alternatives to their fight than Luke using lethal force. Whatever happened to trusting your feelings or wars not making one great?

Obi-Wan's line after Luke tells him he can't kill his father: "Then the Empire has already won." should have been left out and something else put in like "The alternatives to fighting Vader won't be easy but I'm not against you seeking them out."

 From a certain point of view, Obi-Wan told Luke just what he needed to hear.  

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Another thing is that Obi-Wan is hiding, right? Well, badly, as I said before, and here's another thing to it: why did he use a freaking lightsaber, a weapon associated with Jedi, in a random bar fight in a time when Stortroopers are on Tatooine?

"Who I am is not important, my message is." Revan

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^Perhaps because it isn't outside the realm of possibility that a non-Force user could have gotten his hands on one. I'm sure lightsabers ended up being sold on the black market, especially after they were wiped out.

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^I thought about it, but that's not the point. The point is that still is a rare weapon that still is strongly associated with Jedi, and it doesn't seem like a good idea to use it when Imperial troopers are around. Just imagine that troopers came into the bar just 5-10 minutes earlier and saw a lightsaber. They'd probably stop them to at least question, or try to arrest right away. Obi-Wan could probably brainwash them again, but even this power has limits, since when he saw that troopers were coming in the bar, he decided to leave right away. Now imagine if troopers reported to Vader (who as we know used to hunt down remaining Jedi). Just imagine if instead of only troopers we also got Vader coming to docking bay 94 if he made it in time. My point is that it's a HUGE risk just to deal with some a-hole in a bar, not too clever for a hiding Jedi.

The real reason for it I think is... it's a movie, and it's more entertaining to see.

One more thing that is head scratching if we take OT on it's own.  Luke lives with his aunt and uncle, right? But we don't know how they are related. From the way they talk about Anakin (Beru calling him as simply "Lukes father", not "my brother" or anything) we can assume that Owen is Vader's brother (or at very least in-laws). So they HIDE Luke from Vader... at his brother's home. We can only assume that Vader can't give less turds about brother, but nothing more, for a reason why Vader doesn't visit him or anything. With prequels however we see that 1)they are step-brothers and hardly know each other personally 2)Anakin had only bad memories related to Owen and Beru (Shmi's death). So within 6 episodes, we clearly see the reason why Vader doesn't visit brother on Christmas :)

"Who I am is not important, my message is." Revan