Easterhay said: So, if you hate that concept, chances are it's because you don't understand it, maybe?
What I don't understand is how in the world striking down Vader with all of your hatred = joining Palpatine. If anything, Luke would be striking down Vader in order to bring the Empire and the Sith down.
That act alone, striking down Vader, would be an act of darkness. In such a case the end does not justify the means.
Only by taking the non-violent path, does Luke destroy Vader and the Emperor.
Easterhay said:
That act alone, striking down Vader, would be an act of darkness. In such a case the end does not justify the means.
But neither the end nor the means involved joining Palpatine.
What?
By striking down Vader in anger, you're saying that those means would achieve the end of the Emperor and his empire. And I'm saying you're wrong, based on... well, take your pick, really, from various lines of dialogue throughout the films about striking out in anger and using your powers for attack, not knowledge or defence.
Easterhay said:
What?
By striking down Vader in anger, you're saying that those means would achieve the end of the Emperor and his empire. And I'm saying you're wrong, based on... well, take your pick, really, from various lines of dialogue throughout the films about striking out in anger and using your powers for attack, not knowledge or defence.
Those means could fail to bring down Palpatine and the Empire, but neither would those means lead to Luke joining Palpatine.
Of course they would. Striking down in anger is a big step towards the dark side. By your own admission, you don't understand. I can't do any more than direct you to the dialogue from the films, I'm afraid.
Easterhay said:
Of course they would. Striking down in anger is a big step towards the dark side.
I'm asking how taking a step towards the dark side leads to teaming up with another dark side user. Luke and Palpatine both using the dark side wouldn't change the fact that Luke is against Palpatine, not for him.
Easterhay said:
Sate Pestage is from TESB, not ROTJ.
Sorry, I sit corrected. I Forgot he was meant to be in the hologram conversation with Vader.
It's still a silly name though.
Bingowings said: he was meant to be in the hologram conversation with Vader.
I wonder if that means he was supposed to be equal to or above Vader.
From what I can make out if Vader was Alastair Campbell he would be Katie Dox.
Easterhay said:
But joining the dark side is equivalent to becoming a Sith; that's what crossing over to the dark side means.
So, does this mean the dark side didn't exist until the Sith did?
darklordoftech said:
Easterhay said:
What?
By striking down Vader in anger, you're saying that those means would achieve the end of the Emperor and his empire. And I'm saying you're wrong, based on... well, take your pick, really, from various lines of dialogue throughout the films about striking out in anger and using your powers for attack, not knowledge or defence.Those means could fail to bring down Palpatine and the Empire, but neither would those means lead to Luke joining Palpatine.
Yes it would. Do you not understand the movie? Luke would be going over to the dark side by bringing down Vader, and there's no way he could overcome Palpatine, since Palpatine is so powerful and Luke is inexperienced.
Max Von Sydow should play Darth Venerealdisease.
darklordoftech said:
Am I the only one who hates how everyone who turns to the dark side joins the Sith? It makes absolutely no sense to me. You don't switch sides upon becoming a bad person.
How is that everyone? That is most definitely not true for the EU sources I like.
For example in JK2 there is no Sith at all. In JKA, if you choose to turn your character to dark side you eliminate the dark side faction leaders and take thier power base for your own purpose.
In SWTOR, despite being heavily centred around Sith, you have many occasions when Jedi who trun to the dark side does not become Sith. In one instance there is a group of fallen Jedi who think current order is unfit and tries to take over and reform it. In another instance, if you have dark side alignment by the time your Jedi Knight character is to be promoted to Jedi Master, council refuses to grant you the promotion. Then a republic general gives you the rank of general in republic army instead, in a sense that the republic army does not care about the "Jedi crap" and just values competence.
真実
RicOlie_2 saiid: there's no way he could overcome Palpatine, since Palpatine is so powerful and Luke is inexperienced.
So if I'm part of a Rebel army and the rebellion ultimately fails, I'll end up joining the government's military?
Palpatine would presumably be able to bend Luke to his will if Luke gave into the dark side. It is possible, however, that he would be able to resist Palpatine's domination and die instead.
DuracellEnergizer said:
Easterhay said:
But joining the dark side is equivalent to becoming a Sith; that's what crossing over to the dark side means.
So, does this mean the dark side didn't exist until the Sith did?
imperialscum said:
darklordoftech said:
Am I the only one who hates how everyone who turns to the dark side joins the Sith? It makes absolutely no sense to me. You don't switch sides upon becoming a bad person.
How is that everyone? That is most definitely not true for the EU sources I like.
For example in JK2 there is no Sith at all. In JKA, if you choose to turn your character to dark side you eliminate the dark side faction leaders and take thier power base for your own purpose.
In SWTOR, despite being heavily centred around Sith, you have many occasions when Jedi who trun to the dark side does not become Sith. In one instance there is a group of fallen Jedi who think current order is unfit and tries to take over and reform it. In another instance, if you have dark side alignment by the time your Jedi Knight character is to be promoted to Jedi Master, council refuses to grant you the promotion. Then a republic general gives you the rank of general in republic army instead, in a sense that the republic army does not care about the "Jedi crap" and just values competence.
Excellent posts. Thank you both.
DuracellEnergizer said:
Easterhay said:
But joining the dark side is equivalent to becoming a Sith; that's what crossing over to the dark side means.
So, does this mean the dark side didn't exist until the Sith did?
darklordoftech said:
RicOlie_2 saiid: there's no way he could overcome Palpatine, since Palpatine is so powerful and Luke is inexperienced.
So if I'm part of a Rebel army and the rebellion ultimately fails, I'll end up joining the government's military?
lol
Easterhay said:
The Jedi simply perceive anyone who "goes bad" as being Sith.
Where is this ever mentioned in any of the films?
Easterhay said:
It's only the same as Christians who believe people will go to hell for doing bad things
I don't really know how to respond to this, seeing as different Christians hold to different views of Hell.
It's as clear as day that the Jedi perceive bad actions as being the path to the darkside. You really need me to supply you quotes from the films for this?
You don't know how to respond to the second point? Well, they say silence is golden. Your semi-response, though, about different Christians, is purely academic.
The Plagueis rationalizations on TFN are so amusing. They include "the Plagueis novel was decanonized because it would spoil Plagueis's survival" and Shmi was played by a swedish actor and Sydow is a swedish actor, therefore Sydow's character is related to Shmi".
<blockquote><p><strong>darklordoftech</strong> said:</p><blockquote>
<p><strong>Easterhay</strong> said:</p>
<p>What?<br /><br />By striking down Vader in anger, you're saying that those means would achieve the end of the Emperor and his empire. And I'm saying you're wrong, based on... well, take your pick, really, from various lines of dialogue throughout the films about striking out in anger and using your powers for attack, not knowledge or defence.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Those means could fail to bring down Palpatine and the Empire, but neither would those means lead to Luke joining Palpatine. </p></blockquote><p> </p>
The Emperor was clairvoyant, and (up until the end) everything proceeded exactly as he had foreseen. If he said striking down Vader would complete Luke's journey to the Dark Side and subject him to the Emperor's will, that's what would happen. How Luke would get to that point is an interesting creative exercise, but it is not necessary to work it out to understand Return of the Jedi. A wizard did it.
(If you want to engage in that interesting creative exercise, an important thing to remember is that Luke was never really a loyal Rebel and didn't profess sophisticated or deep-seated political leanings. He joined the Rebel Alliance because his application to the (Imperial?) Academy had been delayed and because Vader's forces killed his family. He abandoned the Rebel Alliance because a ghost told him to, stealing an X-wing in the process, and went on a mystical quest to become a great warrior instead of fulfilling his duties during a time of great peril. Had he killed Vader at Endor, he would have avenged himself upon the killer of his aunt and uncle, proven himself a great warrior, attained sufficient power to (perhaps) effect reforms to the more objectionable aspects of the Imperial system, and he'd have more rank and prestige than he ever did in the Rebel Alliance. Tellingly, when Luke rejected this offer, he did so as a Jedi. That is why the Emperor had to break his adherence to the Jedi creed.)
The academy, which Biggs had already graduated from, was presumed to be some sort of civilian service, although the specter of being drafted by the Empire hung in the air. Which is why Biggs was going to jump ship and try to find the Rebellion. Luke was the only person he told of his intentions.
Luke was clearly interested in hearing about the Rebellion from Threepio. And he clearly told Ben he hated the Empire.
Stealing an X-Wing is a bit of a stretch. The fleet might be scattered across the galaxy for a time before we saw them at the end of ESB, in order to evade the Imperial fleet. In light of the fact he blew up the Death Star without a targeting computer, saving the Rebellion's collective ass, I think the leadership would cut Luke a little slack if he went somewhere to improve his abilities.
They might dock his pay for leaving his X-Wing on Bespin though. ;)
Where were you in '77?
Well we as the viewers know a lot more about Luke's character than Palpatine did. Palpatine was evil & had an evil worldview. He was overconfident & thought that everyone was corruptible. If Luke was a different person he could have turned him, but ultimately Luke was good at heart & embraced Yoda's teachings.
Anyways, to the subject at hand. I think the bad guys should be Mandalorians. Not to demystify Boba Fett's character even more, but I think it would be a cool way to bring something new that's connected to the other trilogies without rehashing old plotlines or bringing back old enemies.
They show up en masse from out of nowhere with a powerful ruthless leader (Sydow) & a couple of young brutal self-tough dark Jedi. They want to rule the universe and they think that establishing a new order dark Jedi that would be submissive to their Mandalorian masters & thus more stable would them rule the galaxy, thus they target the next generation of Skywalkers for purposes of breeding them with with their dark Jedi to create this new order, thus providing reason for the original cast to be involved in the new saga.
Boom. No long lost sith or imperial remnant, but new enemies and new dark jedi that seem old and familiar.