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The Audio Preservation Thread — Page 8

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 (Edited)

Chewtobacca said:

PDB said:

So I guess we get back to the heart of the matter, is it worth all the trouble to convert to 48? Does changing it to 48 affect the quality?

It inevitably affects quality.  The high-quality resamplers minimise the damage.

Converting to 48 is unavoidable if one must have a disc playable in a stand-alone player, which is an understandable requirement; however, if it's done after editing, two tracks can be released: one at 44.1 and one at 48.  This way, nobody loses: those who wish to remux to MKV have the option of keeping the original sampling rate; those who want a resampled version can have it; the only change in the editor's workflow is that he resamples the guide track, rather than the track that he wishes to sync.

 Again no worries Chewtobacco. No bad feelings. I get where you are coming from and you have a legitimate point. I was just shooting to make the widest range of people happy. Next, project I do, I'm going to try to edit at 44.1 and use hairy_hen's recommendation to convert after and see how it goes.

Again, I'm sincerely sorry if it looks like I'm pushing to have things my way, but it doesn't make sense to me to insist (justifiably) on bit-perfect rips and then to resample the result,especiallyin a less-than-ideal way.  It's a bit like insisting on buying paper of the highest quality and then giving it to a two-year-old to doodle on it (though obviously that analogy's an extreme one).

 What you don't want to give your kids the best paper possible? If that's going on the frig, best to use the finest canvas available.  :)

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Heiry_Hen, I want to thank you too; you are an audio guru and all the things you are writing are food for thought for me - and I think for many others here.

I want to add that not everybody has access to such softwares, or want to use them for whatever reason... to me, for example, making a free "product" like a fan restoration project, should be reached using free (possibly open source) softwares, and I'm faithful to my mission, so the question is: as you published that interesting link in post #165, but I'm not sure to interpret correctly all those graphs, could you please let me know your opinion on a free way to make a frequency conversion?

AFAIK, SSRC is one of the best method, even in comparison with some paid software; eac3to is also regarded as one of the best free audio conversion tools; the fact is, how can eac3to (using SSRC) results be better than SSRC alone?
Also, SOX and r8brain (1.9 free) seems to be really good alternatives.

The point is, will we, over 20, with good (but not high end) equipment, be ever capable to hear the difference between a state-of-the-art conversion and a "mere" very good free version?

Last thought: after that DVD set the standard sample rate at 48kHz, don't you all think that many soundtracks - in particular at the dawn of the format - were probably a direct conversion from the 44.1kHz digital master done for laserdisc, instead of a new remastered version? I mean, we all know industry; if the could achieve their objectives with few or no money and/or men work...

@Chewtobacca: I agree, the two tracks solution is the best; I make (when needed) audio editing before any eventual sample conversion, but I usually don't release the 44.1kHz version simply because I do Blu-ray based projects; anyway, I'm open to give them to anyone is interested, as I've done in the past.

But I want also to make a little provocation: why don't we use sometimes the analog laserdisc tracks? Quality is very good, comparable with the PCM tracks, and they could be captured at 48kHz 24bit, without further conversions, so everybody will be happy! (^^,)

Sadly my projects are lost due to an HDD crash… 😦 | [Fundamental Collection] thread | blog.spoRv.com | fan preservation forum: fanres.com

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Chewtobacca said:

NeonBible said: Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 khz, 16-bit

 If the figure given for the output sampling rate is accurate, I would appreciate a copy.

It was going to be 48KHz until this thread kicked off :) Viva le revolution! So yes it is 44.1KHz.

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Thanks for the read HH, that makes sense though it did go a bit over my head admittedly. ;)

Great news on the Uni Monster front PDB, I look forward to hearing those comparisons. I only have the Dracula and Mummy VHS releases from the "Faces" VHS series.

As for Batman Returns, the Dolby Stereo SR definitely needs capturing, as 99.99% of theaters played this track, the WB archive 35mm print I saw in December played this SR track and had no 5.1, and the 5.1 is based from this 4-track mix. They seem to have gotten the go ahead to mix in the new 5.1 format and played with their exiting mix. Comparing the LD 4ch matrix to the early DVD 5.1 shows everything as the same, except for overall mixing qualities. The 5.1 is obviously more discrete, but the Stereo SR feels more natural and has a better low end I think. Plus being a studio transfer you lose the inherent deficiencies of 35mm optical. (The print had a good deal of sibilance and upper frequency distortion, especially in the end title section.)

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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 (Edited)

If we go with 44.1khz for the DTS cinema projects, it'd have to be PCM as I don't believe DTS-HD MA and True HD like 44.1khz. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong. 

I'd be ok with a 44.1 and 48 dual inventory release. That or good instructions on how to re sample with good quality. 

I'm going to experiment and see if my Oppo 93 can play files muxed with 44.1.

As for the JP test in a real cinema, let's just say I still know a few kind people. :) 

“Alright twinkle-toes, what’s your exit strategy?”

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I've had a similar problem when creating a blu-ray image with 44.1Khz track to play on blu-ray players. The only way I can watch it without loss of quality is via PC/HTPC.

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I still consider 48 the final product, I'm just going to modify my edit chain to allow for both a 44.1 and 48 soundtracks. The only video/film formats to support 44.1 are laserdiscs and DTS Cinema Discs and they are long dead. So unless you are listen to one of those or using a PC, you are going to need 48. Everything now is 48; DVDs, Blu-rays, HDTV, streaming, etc. 48 is the minimum default today.

Most people I talk too, burn the soundtracks onto Blu-rays. That necessitates 48, so that's what my target has always been. Chewtobacco brings up good points, so moving forward it will be dual 44.1 and 48 release. 44.1 for you HTPC guys and 48 for the rest.

borisanddoris said:

If we go with 44.1khz for the DTS cinema projects, it'd have to be PCM as I don't believe DTS-HD MA and True HD like 44.1khz. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong. 

I'd be ok with a 44.1 and 48 dual inventory release. That or good instructions on how to re sample with good quality. 

I'm going to experiment and see if my Oppo 93 can play files muxed with 44.1.

As for the JP test in a real cinema, let's just say I still know a few kind people. :) 

 Dolby Digital and DTS (home theater version) both support 32, 44.1 and 48 (DTS later expanded to 96 but that never went anywhere). I have never seen Dolby Digital encoded in 32 or 44.1 but of course DTS exists in 44.1 on laserdiscs. DTS (theater version) as we know is of course always 44.1. DTS-HD MA and Dolby TRUEHD/MLP supports 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192, etc. so they can do 44.1. None of that matters since the Blu-ray format won't allow for any soundtracks in 44.1, not in DTS, Dolby or PCM.

I'm curious about how your Oppo does with 44.1. The Oppo will play CDs so its DACs will support 44.1 and if you bitstream you receiver will support 44.1. I wonder if it will even work and if it does, will convert to 48, will lose sync, etc. Please let me know if you get anywhere with that, borisanddoris.

That's cool about the JP test.

rockin said:

I've had a similar problem when creating a blu-ray image with 44.1Khz track to play on blu-ray players. The only way I can watch it without loss of quality is via PC/HTPC.

 That's what I assume would happen. Rockin, out of curiosity what player did you test that on? Did the Blu-ray image play fine on your PC despite being non-spec for BD?

,,,^..^,,,_ said:

But I want also to make a little provocation: why don't we use sometimes the analog laserdisc tracks? Quality is very good, comparable with the PCM tracks, and they could be captured at 48kHz 24bit, without further conversions, so everybody will be happy! (^^,)

That analog question is a good one. I've capture from LDs at 44.1/16 since that was always my default for LDs but 48/24 would probably be better. Being analog it doesn't matter so the higher the sampling, the better (to a point). That's something to think about Andrea. We should standardize.

I still have the Hitchcock laserdiscs that I need to capture and they are all analog. Sadly capturing analog is where better equipment always shines.

captainsolo said:

Great news on the Uni Monster front PDB, I look forward to hearing those comparisons. I only have the Dracula and Mummy VHS releases from the "Faces" VHS series.

As for Batman Returns, the Dolby Stereo SR definitely needs capturing, as 99.99% of theaters played this track, the WB archive 35mm print I saw in December played this SR track and had no 5.1, and the 5.1 is based from this 4-track mix. They seem to have gotten the go ahead to mix in the new 5.1 format and played with their exiting mix. Comparing the LD 4ch matrix to the early DVD 5.1 shows everything as the same, except for overall mixing qualities. The 5.1 is obviously more discrete, but the Stereo SR feels more natural and has a better low end I think. Plus being a studio transfer you lose the inherent deficiencies of 35mm optical. (The print had a good deal of sibilance and upper frequency distortion, especially in the end title section.)

 Yeah crissrudd4554 was nice enough to give me rips of the VHS tapes a long time ago and life stopped me from moving forward with them. Now that I have "some" time, I first wanted to get the '99 soundtracks (sold my '99 discs a while back), so you can have the BDs vs '99 DVD vs VHS. 

That's a good read on Returns. That makes me more excited to get to work on that. I guess you can consider Returns close to the pinnacle of Dolby Stereo (SR) technology. I compared Jurassic Park's LD PCM soundtrack to the LD's DTS and it seems to pretty much be a mix down. I would expect that since I believe JP was mixed from the beginning as discrete DTS and the stereo created after (the old 70mm to Dolby Stereo model).

I remember you saying Batman's 5.1 (DVD snapper) was a bit of an anomaly too. I need to get copies of both Batman and Return's 5.1 soundtracks to sync.

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Well tsmuxer won't even take a 44.1khz file into it.  

I typically mix everything into either Blu-ray or M2TS streams for the Oppo.  It works with MKV, but won't do lossless tracks with MKVs, unless it's PCM.

“Alright twinkle-toes, what’s your exit strategy?”

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My Oppo BDP-80 will play BD-Rs containing MKVs with 44.1kHz LPCM 2.0, but it has a lot of bugs, like ignoring the chapter stops, and deciding to jump back to the very beginning if I try to rewind, and then stopping playback if I try to fast forward to the place where I left off (so I'm screwed unless I want to watch the whole thing again).  My Popcorn Hour does a pretty good job with MKVs, but its kind of a pain to use in my setup so I prefer to mux to BDMV and playback in my PS3 or Oppo.

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borisanddoris said:

Well tsmuxer won't even take a 44.1khz file into it.  

I typically mix everything into either Blu-ray or M2TS streams for the Oppo.  It works with MKV, but won't do lossless tracks with MKVs, unless it's PCM.

 Hmmmm that doesn't surprise, thanks borisanddoris

Buster D said:

My Oppo BDP-80 will play BD-Rs containing MKVs with 44.1kHz LPCM 2.0, but it has a lot of bugs, like ignoring the chapter stops, and deciding to jump back to the very beginning if I try to rewind, and then stopping playback if I try to fast forward to the place where I left off (so I'm screwed unless I want to watch the whole thing again).  My Popcorn Hour does a pretty good job with MKVs, but its kind of a pain to use in my setup so I prefer to mux to BDMV and playback in my PS3 or Oppo.

 and kind of surprised the Oppo gets that far, thanks BusterD

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PDB said:

I still consider 48 the final product, I'm just going to modify my edit chain to allow for both a 44.1 and 48 soundtracks. The only video/film formats to support 44.1 are laserdiscs and DTS Cinema Discs and they are long dead. So unless you are listen to one of those or using a PC, you are going to need 48. Everything now is 48; DVDs, Blu-rays, HDTV, streaming, etc. 48 is the minimum default today.

Most people I talk too, burn the soundtracks onto Blu-rays. That necessitates 48, so that's what my target has always been. Chewtobacco brings up good points, so moving forward it will be dual 44.1 and 48 release. 44.1 for you HTPC guys and 48 for the rest.

borisanddoris said:

If we go with 44.1khz for the DTS cinema projects, it'd have to be PCM as I don't believe DTS-HD MA and True HD like 44.1khz. 

Please correct me if I'm wrong. 

I'd be ok with a 44.1 and 48 dual inventory release. That or good instructions on how to re sample with good quality. 

I'm going to experiment and see if my Oppo 93 can play files muxed with 44.1.

As for the JP test in a real cinema, let's just say I still know a few kind people. :) 

 Dolby Digital and DTS (home theater version) both support 32, 44.1 and 48 (DTS later expanded to 96 but that never went anywhere). I have never seen Dolby Digital encoded in 32 or 44.1 but of course DTS exists in 44.1 on laserdiscs. DTS (theater version) as we know is of course always 44.1. DTS-HD MA and Dolby TRUEHD/MLP supports 32, 44.1, 48, 88.2, 96, 176.4, 192, etc. so they can do 44.1. None of that matters since the Blu-ray format won't allow for any soundtracks in 44.1, not in DTS, Dolby or PCM.

I'm curious about how your Oppo does with 44.1. The Oppo will play CDs so its DACs will support 44.1 and if you bitstream you receiver will support 44.1. I wonder if it will even work and if it does, will convert to 48, will lose sync, etc. Please let me know if you get anywhere with that, borisanddoris.

That's cool about the JP test.

rockin said:

I've had a similar problem when creating a blu-ray image with 44.1Khz track to play on blu-ray players. The only way I can watch it without loss of quality is via PC/HTPC.

 That's what I assume would happen. Rockin, out of curiosity what player did you test that on? Did the Blu-ray image play fine on your PC despite being non-spec for BD?

I couldn't make the image, as the sound did not conform with the specification required to make the image, and therefore the only option would be to convert the audio and lose sound quality. To combat this, I decided to mux it to a .ts/mkv file and play it on my pc instead.

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PDB said:

I still have the Hitchcock laserdiscs that I need to capture and they are all analog. Sadly capturing analog is where better equipment always shines.

Are you planning to work on Vertigo?

I wonder how the LD compares to the current offering on the Region A BD (lossy, but DTS).

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just a headsup...

the original mono mix for an american werewolf in london has be preserved. taken from this laserdisc. bitperfect of course. though, it's not synced yet.

special thanks goes out to andrea for capture and sharing.

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NeonBible said:

PDB said:

I still have the Hitchcock laserdiscs that I need to capture and they are all analog. Sadly capturing analog is where better equipment always shines.

Are you planning to work on Vertigo?

I wonder how the LD compares to the current offering on the Region A BD (lossy, but DTS).

 Yep, got that laserdisc. I was wondering the same thing.

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zeropc said:

just a headsup...

the original mono mix for an american werewolf in london has be preserved. taken from this laserdisc. bitperfect of course. though, it's not synced yet.

special thanks goes out to andrea for capture and sharing.

 Very cool!

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I haven't tried the BD yet, but it should be the same as the mix found on the 2005 Masterpiece Collection DVD, which was noisy with inherent hum and occasional crackle. From what some have said I think it should be the same source as the old LD/VHS. The later 90's VHS and Beta releases may have a better condition version.

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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PDB said:

I use Adobe Audition for all my projects since I have the Adobe suite.

There are pre- & post-filtering in Adobe Audition, which I have used.  It's interesting seeing how much the quality has improved in latest released via src.infinitewave.ca .

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Is the DTS-MA 2.0 for American Graffiti as close to the original theatrical audio (4-track stereo) as we can get?  I have one of the Pioneer Japan LDs but it's Dolby Surround, so I assume it's mostly the same as the DTS-MA.

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Movie: An American Werewolf in London
Format: Laserdisc LD 15101-WS
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit
Synced To: To be synced
Ripped: Andrea
Notes: Contains the original Theatrical Mono soundtrack, which isn't available on DVD and Blu-ray.

Movie: Full Metal Jacket
Format: Laserdisc NJL-11760
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit
Synced To: To be synced
Ripped: Buster D
Notes: Contains the original Theatrical Mono soundtrack, which isn't available on Blu-ray.

Movie: Blade Runner (International Cut)
Format: Laserdisc NJL-20089
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 khz, 16-bit
Synced To: To be synced
Ripped by: Buster D
Notes: Ripped from Japanese LD. Not Criterion Collection LD

Movie: Carrie
Format: Laserdisc CC1322L
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit
Synced To: To be synced
Ripped: Buster D
Notes: DVD & Blu-ray contain the original Mono mix, but only in lossy format. Ripped from Criterion Collection LD

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captainsolo said:

I haven't tried the BD yet, but it should be the same as the mix found on the 2005 Masterpiece Collection DVD, which was noisy with inherent hum and occasional crackle. From what some have said I think it should be the same source as the old LD/VHS. The later 90's VHS and Beta releases may have a better condition version.

It probably is the same. I'm in the process of capturing it. I will post up a sample when done, captainsolo.

*edit: Here is a test sample of the first couple of minutes for the analog LD:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/3g44ql

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Lacerated said:

PDB said:

I use Adobe Audition for all my projects since I have the Adobe suite.

There are pre- & post-filtering in Adobe Audition, which I have used.  It's interesting seeing how much the quality has improved in latest released via src.infinitewave.ca .

 The Adobe Audition suite is great all around. I'm trying to learn speedgrade right now. See if I can fix the colors on some movies.

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Hi zeropc, ive synced Buster D's rip of Blade Runner International Cut. Info added a couple of pages back.

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Buster D said:

Is the DTS-MA 2.0 for American Graffiti as close to the original theatrical audio (4-track stereo) as we can get?  I have one of the Pioneer Japan LDs but it's Dolby Surround, so I assume it's mostly the same as the DTS-MA.

   Who knows. Much like all Lucas films, American Graffiti has gone through a few changes. I don't know of any modification to the soundtrack but would not be surprised to hear it did happen. If there are changes, they are on the Blu-ray.

Interesting enough, IMDB says it was a 4-track but it predates Dolby Stereo and was too much of a low budget to get a 70mm release. That means only European audiences heard the 4 track on 35mm mag prints. In the US it would of been stereo optical (no matrix). 

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zeropc said:

Movie: An American Werewolf in London
Format: Laserdisc LD 15101-WS
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit
Synced To: To be synced
Ripped: Andrea
Notes: Contains the original Theatrical Mono soundtrack, which isn't available on DVD and Blu-ray.

Movie: Full Metal Jacket
Format: Laserdisc NJL-11760
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit
Synced To: To be synced
Ripped: Buster D
Notes: Contains the original Theatrical Mono soundtrack, which isn't available on Blu-ray.

Movie: Blade Runner (International Cut)
Format: Laserdisc NJL-20089
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 khz, 16-bit
Synced To: To be synced
Ripped by: Buster D
Notes: Ripped from Japanese LD. Not Criterion Collection LD

Movie: Carrie
Format: Laserdisc CC1322L
Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit, bit perfect
Output Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Mono 44.1 khz, 16-bit
Synced To: To be synced
Ripped: Buster D
Notes: DVD & Blu-ray contain the original Mono mix, but only in lossy format. Ripped from Criterion Collection LD

 Thanks zeropc, can't wait to hear them all synced up. I'm sure a lot of people will be especially excited for Kubrick in the original mono.

Also Buster D was nice enough to sync up The Rocketeer in both 44.1 and 48. I'm excited to hear this one and another one off the list:

Movie: The Rocketeer

Format: Pioneer (Japan) Laserdisc PILF-1466

Input Soundtrack: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 kHz, 16-bit, bit perfect

Output Soundtrack 1: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 44.1 kHz, 16-bit 

Output Soundtrack 2: PCM 2.0 Dolby Stereo Surround 48 kHz, 16-bit

Synced To: 2011 Blu-ray Release Region A

Ripped/Synced by: Buster D

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PDB said:

Buster D said:

Is the DTS-MA 2.0 for American Graffiti as close to the original theatrical audio (4-track stereo) as we can get?  I have one of the Pioneer Japan LDs but it's Dolby Surround, so I assume it's mostly the same as the DTS-MA.

Interesting enough, IMDB says it was a 4-track but it predates Dolby Stereo and was too much of a low budget to get a 70mm release. That means only European audiences heard the 4 track on 35mm mag prints. In the US it would of been stereo optical (no matrix). 

I was under the impression that stereo optical didn't even exist prior to Dolby. I would be more willing to bet that the original 1973 release was strictly mono - especially because Walter Murch himself has stated point-blank that "American Graffiti was in mono. Apocalypse Now was my first stereo film. All of the films I'd worked on up until that point were mono."

IMDB probably says it was 4-track stereo because the 1978 re-release was remixed in Dolby Stereo. IMDB also claims Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory was both mono and 4-track stereo, when in reality it was only ever in mono until it was remixed for the the 1996 re-release.

With few exceptions, most 70s films prior to Star Wars were in mono. I believe that Phantom of the Paradise and Nashville were indeed in 4-track stereo, but IMDB also claims that The Man Who Fell to Earth was in 4-track, yet I can find no evidence that it was ever anything but mono. And while they also say that The Rocky Horror Picture Show had 4-track mag stereo, I have no idea if that's true either.

To be honest, I take any IMDB claims of pre-Star Wars 70s films being in stereo with a grain of salt. Unless there is concrete evidence that a film was exhibited in stereo, I will assume that it was never mixed in anything but mono.