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STAR WARS: EP V "REVISITED EDITION"ADYWAN - 12GB 1080p MP4 VERSION AVAILABLE NOW — Page 1190

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I thought the whole point of that line is Vader assumes that Luke has had the same training from the same Master he had.

Not knowing Yoda had trained Luke gives him a edge over Vader.

Remember Yoda doesn't tell Luke to kill Vader only to face his fears as represented by his fallen father. Ben is the one going on about the battle being lost if Luke can't commit patricide.

In the end it's Luke's compassion (something fostered by Yoda) that saves the day.

Back to the topic at hand the cockpit restoration is brilliantly done, it no longer looks like the Star Warriors are driving a VW camper.

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adywan said:

Yes, i had a 1080p scan from a 35mm source. It was a pretty beat up print and badly faded, but did the trick in the end. I have been able to do all of the cropped shots. All i have heard about the cropping is that George preferred the tight framing done in ANH for the cockpits. How true that rumour is, is anyone's guess.

Yeah I read in The Secret History of Star Wars (I think) that Lucas was annoyed that they made the cockpit bigger for ESB ;something to do with preferring a cramped WWII vibe, I think; can't recall exactly. 

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adywan said:

Something that really bugged me about the DVD/Blu-Ray releases of the Original Trilogy ( apart from the messed up colour pallet of course) was the re-framing/ cropping of all the wide shots inside the Millennium Falcon's cockpit. This was something that started to appear in a few shots in the 1997 SE's, but was further changed upon the release of the DVD's. Almost every wide shot inside the cockpit was heavily cropped.

Now many may not have even noticed this, but to me and many others, it stuck out like a sore thumb. Well, not any more......

I have been able to restore these shots to their original framing in glorious HD. Luckily i didn't have to use those low quality Bonus DVDs that were released in 2006, or any of the other various home video releases, to restore the framing. (proof in my next comment below)

So.... Click on the link to go to the comparison page...

Main image is the Official Blu-Ray and place the cursor over the image to see the restored version.

http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/70730

And the comparison between the GOUT and Revisited:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/70735

Holy shit, though. 

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Cantina Scene said:

adywan said:

Yes, i had a 1080p scan from a 35mm source. It was a pretty beat up print and badly faded, but did the trick in the end. I have been able to do all of the cropped shots. All i have heard about the cropping is that George preferred the tight framing done in ANH for the cockpits. How true that rumour is, is anyone's guess.

Yeah I read in The Secret History of Star Wars (I think) that Lucas was annoyed that they made the cockpit bigger for ESB ;something to do with preferring a cramped WWII vibe, I think; can't recall exactly. 

Interesting, that's something that had never occured to me but GL is right IMHO. Based on Luke's initial reaction to seeing the millenium falcon in Star Wars, calling it a "piece of junk" the ship cockpit works better feelling cramped, not spacious like the uncropped shot makes it feel. This is of course seperate from the fact that the uncropped shot looks like the camera is shooting through a window into a set while the cropped shot looks like the camera is in there in the cockpit with the characters and not shooting from the outside into a set.

I don't want to offend anybody here but I think that some of you should try to be a bit more objective about the changes that GL made to the Star Wars Original Trilogy, yes he made a lot of bad calls by making Greedo shoot first, adding Jabba to the first film, adding Jedi Rocks and Christensen to ROTJ etc. but that doesn't mean that ALL the changes he made, like cropping this cockpit shot, are automatically bad, give him a bit of credit. Some of the changes he made, especially to effects shots, were improvements IMHO. Remember that Star Wars would not exist without GL, he deserves our respect for that alone, even if he went off the deep end later on with some of the Special Edition changes.

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If the cropping had anything to do with making the camera look like it's not being shot through the window, then why the hell crop shots like this:

yet a few moments later he leaves this shot uncropped..

And why crop this shot at all?

Oh, and i really can't see how it even remotely looks like the camera is shooting out of the window when it is in exactly the same position as it was in ANH. Compare these two pics and you can see that there is no difference apart from the scale of the cockpit and the top and bottom frame cropping.

Funny how NO ONE had a problem with the framing of these shots until AFTER George cropped them. I never heard a single comment about how the camera position broke the fourth wall or anything like that. You forget that, in ANH, not much really happened in the cockpit. The original set  was fine for the small amount of movement needed for that film.  When it came to ESB, more action was happening inside the cockpit so it needed to be a bit more spacious to allow the actors to move around more.

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

DONATIONS TOWARDS MATERIALS FOR THE REVISITED SAGA

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kk650 said:


I don't want to offend anybody here but I think that some of you here should try to be a bit more objective about the changes that GL made to the Star Wars Original Trilogy, yes he made a lot of bad calls by making Greedo shoot first, adding Jabba to the first film, adding Jedi Rocks and Christensen to ROTJ etc. but that doesn't mean that ALL the changes he made, like cropping this cockpit shot, are automatically bad, give him a bit of credit. Some of the changes he made, especially to effects shots, were improvements IMHO. Remember that Star Wars would not exist without GL, he deserves our respect for that alone, even if he went off the deep end later on with some of the Special Edition changes.

It's hard for me to respect the man for various reasons.

One of the things that annoys me the most about Lucas is how he justify all his crappy decisions by saying "they're my movies".

Yes, Lucas made Star Wars... Or did he? He came up with the original concept yeah, but what he often fails to mention is that his script was rewritten by Willard Huyck and Gloria Katz, who weren't even credited. And I don't need to remind anyone here that he didn't direct Empire and Jedi. So "his" movies? Not as much as he claims.

And now for my favorite trivia : he was so sure the final version of ANH would flop that he didn't even show up at the premiere. He even made a bet with Spielberg (which he lost), that Encounter of the Third Kind would have more success than Star Wars. That's how much Lucas believed in "his" movie 30 years ago ; yet today he keeps prancing around abusing "his" movies (yes at this point I'm calling it an abuse) to his heart's content.

But the worst part, in my opinion, happened when Lucas started to make decisions based on how it would affect toy sales, namely not killing Han in Jedi. I'm not saying killing Han would have been better or anything, but of all the reasons a director can think of for deciding the fate of one the main characters, the only one that popped in Mister Lucas' head was : "But if we kill him we'll sell less of his action figures so let's keep him alive and make more bucks !" Oh I'm sorry George for a moment there I thought you were a movie maker not a f***ing toy salesman!

So as much as I respect everyone's opinion on this matter he won't be getting my respect anytime soon. Not that he'll lose any sleep over it anyway.

All that being said you're right : all the SE and DVD changes weren't bad (I can't recall any good changes on the blu-ray apart from the CGI Yoda on TPM). But Lucas has added so much bad on Star Wars since Jedi it's hard to see the good he added.

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adywan said:

If the cropping had anything to do with making the camera look like it's not being shot through the window, then why the hell crop shots like this:

yet a few moments later he leaves this shot uncropped..

And why crop this shot at all?

The first cropped frame you've shown here definately makes the cockpit seem more cramped, the uncropped shot looks too spacious compared to how the cockpit looked in Star Wars, so the cropped shot is an improvement in my book while watching the film. I agree with you that the uncropped frame doesn't look like a set in this shot though, so its a closer call which framing is preferable.

As to why he changes to the uncropped shot later though, I have no idea to be honest, maybe he was forgetful or he had some reason, i'd have to watch that bit again to make any real assessment. Doesn't change the fact that the cropped shot looks more cramped and therefore better serves the story narrative IMHO.

The second cropped shot seems more intended to emphasise the ship outside by making it larger in the frame than to make the cockpit seem more cramped, whether than is necessary or indeed improves the shot is debatable. I would personally lean towards the cropped framing here if I had to make a choice but I don't think it makes much difference either way. The first cropped shot makes much more of a positive difference IMHO.

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adywan said:


Oh, and i really can't see how it even remotely looks like the camera is shooting out of the window when it is in exactly the same position as it was in ANH. Compare these two pics and you can see that there is no difference apart from the scale of the cockpit and the top and bottom frame cropping.

Funny how NO ONE had a problem with the framing of these shots until AFTER George cropped them. I never heard a single comment about how the camera position broke the fourth wall or anything like that. You forget that, in ANH, not much really happened in the cockpit. The original set  was fine for the small amount of movement needed for that film.  When it came to ESB, more action was happening inside the cockpit so it needed to be a bit more spacious to allow the actors to move around more.

There is a clear difference between those two shots, the shot from Empire Strikes Back is clearly wider than the one from Star Wars due to the larger cockpit, leading to far more lens distortion, especially in the corners of the uncropped ESB frame, more than is acceptable IMHO. The main problem though with the uncropped ESB frame is the curved window frame in the top left corner that is not there in the Star Wars frame, making it look like the camera is shooting through a window into a set from the outside rather than the Star Wars frame where the camera looks like its inside the cockpit with the characters.

No one had a problem with the framing when the film came out theatrically because they were too busy enjoying an amazing film to notice window frames in the corners of wide shots. The uncropped ESB shot clearly looks more like a set than the Star Wars one though, the cropped ESB one does not so it is an improvement in my book.

Okay, so the cockpit has to be wider in ESB to allow for more movement, fair enough, but then adjustments/compromises have to be made with framing to avoid showing the edges of the cockpit window and risking breaking the fourth wall. Either they forgot to do that for the theatrical release or GL changed his mind decades later. In either case it is an improvement in my book, one of numerous improvements GL made with the Special Editions IMHO.

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kk650 said:

Okay, so the cockpit has to be wider in ESB to allow for more movement, fair enough, but then adjustments/compromises have to be made with framing to avoid showing the edges of the cockpit window and risking breaking the fourth wall. Either they forgot to do that for the theatrical release or GL changed his mind decades later. In either case it is an improvement in my book, one of numerous improvements GL made with the Special Editions IMHO.
The sticking point to me is that Lucas didn't direct this movie. Kershner and his DP framed it how they wanted, it seems like Lucas didn't agree, so when someone pointed it out to him 20 years later he had them crop it. There are still mistakes in the film, but by George, the cockpit will be cropped!

Star Wars Revisited Wordpress

Star Wars Visual Comparisons WordPress

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doubleofive said:

but by George

This is an excellent use of this idiom! I love it! :-)

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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kk650 said:

adywan said:


Oh, and i really can't see how it even remotely looks like the camera is shooting out of the window when it is in exactly the same position as it was in ANH. Compare these two pics and you can see that there is no difference apart from the scale of the cockpit and the top and bottom frame cropping.

Funny how NO ONE had a problem with the framing of these shots until AFTER George cropped them. I never heard a single comment about how the camera position broke the fourth wall or anything like that. You forget that, in ANH, not much really happened in the cockpit. The original set  was fine for the small amount of movement needed for that film.  When it came to ESB, more action was happening inside the cockpit so it needed to be a bit more spacious to allow the actors to move around more.

There is a clear difference between those two shots, the shot from Empire Strikes Back is clearly wider than the one from Star Wars due to the larger cockpit, leading to far more lens distortion, especially in the corners of the uncropped ESB frame, more than is acceptable IMHO. The main problem though with the uncropped ESB frame is the curved window frame in the top left corner that is not there in the Star Wars frame, making it look like the camera is shooting through a window into a set from the outside rather than the Star Wars frame where the camera looks like its inside the cockpit with the characters.

No one had a problem with the framing when the film came out theatrically because they were too busy enjoying an amazing film to notice window frames in the corners of wide shots. The uncropped ESB shot clearly looks more like a set than the Star Wars one though, the cropped ESB one does not so it is an improvement in my book.

Okay, so the cockpit has to be wider in ESB to allow for more movement, fair enough, but then adjustments/compromises have to be made with framing to avoid showing the edges of the cockpit window and risking breaking the fourth wall. Either they forgot to do that for the theatrical release or GL changed his mind decades later. In either case it is an improvement in my book, one of numerous improvements GL made with the Special Editions IMHO.

 You can clearly see the curved frame of the window in the left & right corners in the ANH shot. It actually shows a little more of in in the ANH shot than it does in the ESB one. It shows that, even though the ESB cockpit is wider, the camera shows the exact same framing as it does in ANH. It shows BOTH the left and right curved frames of the windows in BOTH ANH & ESB. It doesn't matter if the ESB set was larger, the framing is exactly the same ( with ANH showing just slightly more of the window frames than in ESB). So the fourth wall argument is invalid. No re-framing was needed when you see the exact same amount of the cockpit in both films.

They also cropped the film from a 2k source. So there is a very noticeable drop in quality between the cropped shots and original shots.

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

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I think the added depth in the set is very subtly done. It's isn't 'clearly' deeper.

You have to really strain to spot the difference and that's with the two set photos next to each other and who's to say than Han didn't extend the cockpit between the two films?

I prefer the un-cropped versions they have rich and compelling detail to them which is absent in the cropped versions.

I do hope Ady will be as OCD when it comes to making the Executor bridge in ROTJ look as good as the one in ESB (what is it with 80's sequels and buggering up hand-me-down sets?).

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adywan said:

kk650 said:

adywan said:


Oh, and i really can't see how it even remotely looks like the camera is shooting out of the window when it is in exactly the same position as it was in ANH. Compare these two pics and you can see that there is no difference apart from the scale of the cockpit and the top and bottom frame cropping.

Funny how NO ONE had a problem with the framing of these shots until AFTER George cropped them. I never heard a single comment about how the camera position broke the fourth wall or anything like that. You forget that, in ANH, not much really happened in the cockpit. The original set  was fine for the small amount of movement needed for that film.  When it came to ESB, more action was happening inside the cockpit so it needed to be a bit more spacious to allow the actors to move around more.

There is a clear difference between those two shots, the shot from Empire Strikes Back is clearly wider than the one from Star Wars due to the larger cockpit, leading to far more lens distortion, especially in the corners of the uncropped ESB frame, more than is acceptable IMHO. The main problem though with the uncropped ESB frame is the curved window frame in the top left corner that is not there in the Star Wars frame, making it look like the camera is shooting through a window into a set from the outside rather than the Star Wars frame where the camera looks like its inside the cockpit with the characters.

No one had a problem with the framing when the film came out theatrically because they were too busy enjoying an amazing film to notice window frames in the corners of wide shots. The uncropped ESB shot clearly looks more like a set than the Star Wars one though, the cropped ESB one does not so it is an improvement in my book.

Okay, so the cockpit has to be wider in ESB to allow for more movement, fair enough, but then adjustments/compromises have to be made with framing to avoid showing the edges of the cockpit window and risking breaking the fourth wall. Either they forgot to do that for the theatrical release or GL changed his mind decades later. In either case it is an improvement in my book, one of numerous improvements GL made with the Special Editions IMHO.

 You can clearly see the curved frame of the window in the left & right corners in the ANH shot. It actually shows a little more of in in the ANH shot than it does in the ESB one. It shows that, even though the ESB cockpit is wider, the camera shows the exact same framing as it does in ANH. It shows BOTH the left and right curved frames of the windows in BOTH ANH & ESB. So the fourth wall argument is invalid. No re-framing was needed when you see the exact same amount of the cockpit in both films.

They also cropped the film from a 2k source. So there is a very noticeable drop in quality between the cropped shots and original shots.

I'm afraid i'm going to have to agree to disagree about the curved frame of the window being more visible in the ANH shot, to my eyes it is clearly more visible on the uncropped ESB shot, hence why I believe the cropped framing is better. The breaking the fourth wall argument is in MY OPINION very much valid and you thinking that it is invalid is YOUR OPINION, not absolute fact like you seem to believe from your statement.

Your work on Star Wars Revisited was well done but you might want to reign in the ego a touch and show a little more respect for the opinions of others, your opinion is worth no more than anybody elses.

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Bingowings said:


I do hope Ady will be as OCD when it comes to making the Executor bridge in ROTJ look as good as the one in ESB (what is it with 80's sequels and buggering up hand-me-down sets?).

 Well, that's the real trick, isn't it. ;) But that bridge is going to be almost impossible to get it to match the better ESB one, thanks mainly to this guy stuck down the bottom, here....

ANH:REVISITED
ESB:REVISITED

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I never imagined that Ady restoring something back to the original would draw so much ire.

*thinks about the Boba Fett Accent Debate*

Nevermind.

Star Wars Revisited Wordpress

Star Wars Visual Comparisons WordPress

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doubleofive said:

I never imagined that Ady restoring something back to the original would draw so much ire.

*thinks about the Boba Fett Accent Debate*

Nevermind.

Not so much ire as uncomprehension as to why some people cannot accept and are not willing to entertain even the possibility that a change from how something was originally in the Star Wars Original Trilogy could actually be better, like its impossible that they made mistakes in the original shooting of the films or simply ran out of time to get everything as they would have liked which is the most likely case.

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People only see a difference with crampedness when comparing cropped with uncropped. This notion that ESB has ALWAYS looked like the camera is shooting from outside the ship, baffles me. As far as I'm aware, you don't see anything in frame that indicates there ought to be the window "spokes" in frame too, therefore our view is certainly inside the glass (or transparisteel).

The only way that might not work for you is if you fixate on a bulky videocamera not fitting inside the window, and in that case, YOU'RE the one breaking the fourth wall by even thinking about equipment and film crew being present, rather than just getting caught up in the fantasy. In fiction, we are disembodied spectators.

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kk650 said:



doubleofive said:

I never imagined that Ady restoring something back to the original would draw so much ire.

*thinks about the Boba Fett Accent Debate*

Nevermind.

Not so much ire as uncomprehension as to why some people cannot accept and are not willing to entertain even the possibility that a change from how something was originally in the Star Wars Original Trilogy could actually be better, like its impossible that they made mistakes in the original shooting of the films or simply ran out of time to get everything as they would have liked which is the most likely case.
I'm pretty sure this project is FOCUSED on such things. This particular item a late change from the 2nd iteration of the Special Edition that Adywan doesn't care for, and it is his prerogative to change it back.

Star Wars Revisited Wordpress

Star Wars Visual Comparisons WordPress

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Seeing more of The Falcon cockpit in a higher resolution is clearly the way to go. Whatever arguments you can make about a low resolution zoomed and cropped shot being more realistic. I don't really care, I want every last atom of film that was originally shot and printed in ESB:R. Go Adywan! :-)

VIZ TOP TIPS! - PARENTS. Impress your children by showing them a floppy disk and telling them it’s a 3D model of a save icon.

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brash_stryker said:

People only see a difference with crampedness when comparing cropped with uncropped. This notion that ESB has ALWAYS looked like the camera is shooting from outside the ship, baffles me. As far as I'm aware, you don't see anything in frame that indicates there ought to be the window "spokes" in frame too, therefore our view is certainly inside the glass (or transparisteel).

The only way that might not work for you is if you fixate on a bulky videocamera not fitting inside the window, and in that case, YOU'RE the one breaking the fourth wall by even thinking about equipment and film crew being present, rather than just getting caught up in the fantasy. In fiction, we are disembodied spectators.

The edge of the window frame on the top left corner of the uncropped ESB frame does draw attention to itself IMHO, it implies a window that the camera is shooting through, hence subconsiously reminding the viewer that its a set and they're watching a film. I don't get that feeling when looking at the cockpit frame from Star Wars.

Nobody ever tries to break their own fourth wall, not unless they're specifically focusing on the edges of frames and looking for mistakes the filmmakers made, but if you leave an uncropped shot like the one from ESB that looks like a set, subconsciously people are picking up on that. Will it be enough to break the illusion? Probably not, but I believe it will lessen their appreciation of that film, even if they themselves don't realise it. Is that a worthwhile sacrifice to make for a little more information on the sides and slightly more detail? Everybody will have their own opinion on that but for me, maintaining the illusion is the most important thing of all, extra information on the sides be damned. GL seems to agree with me on that.

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kk650 said:

I'm afraid i'm going to have to agree to disagree about the curved frame of the window being more visible in the ANH shot, to my eyes it is clearly more visible on the uncropped ESB shot, hence why I believe the cropped framing is better. The breaking the fourth wall argument is in MY OPINION very much valid and you thinking that it is invalid is YOUR OPINION, not absolute fact like you seem to believe from your statement.

Your work on Star Wars Revisited was well done but you might want to reign in the ego a touch and show a little more respect for the opinions of others, your opinion is worth no more than anybody elses.

 I don't think it's the case of it being an ego at all, but your argument actually being invalid with regard to the curved edge of the window frame. *I* can certainly see slightly more of the curve in ANH shot just like Ady said. You assert that you can "clearly" see more of it in the uncropped ESB shot. As far as I'm concerned that's not the case as I'm looking at it right now.

Your opinion on which is better is fine. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Ady was just pointing out that the logic you're using to justify you preference doesn't seem to be reflected in the actual image.

If he seemed impatient, remember that he's probably spent more time looking at that shot than you have eating cooked dinners. It's probably just frustration. :)

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I am also of the opinion that seeing the full, non-cropped frame is better.  I just personally like seeing the full-frame footage because, that was the version that was originally printed, and I like seeing as much of the Falcon as possible.

In terms of lens distortion, 4th walls, and all that other stuff, I honestly wouldn't be paying enough attention to notice.  Granted I enjoy the changes Ady makes but, not just because they are all in your face and noticeable.  It is the subtle things that we are not always conscious of that really add to scenes.

I personally probably wouldn't have noticed this change unless it was pointed out but, I am glad Ady made it.  Being true to the original framing of the film means a lot to me, regardless of my reasons being good or bad for it.

Great work Ady!  I look forward to seeing the full film in the future.

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Umm, maybe this is just me, but it seems like some people are forgetting that this is Adywan's project, and as such he, by every right, has the final voice on things.

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kk650 said:

doubleofive said:

I never imagined that Ady restoring something back to the original would draw so much ire.

*thinks about the Boba Fett Accent Debate*

Nevermind.

Not so much ire as uncomprehension as to why some people cannot accept and are not willing to entertain even the possibility that a change from how something was originally in the Star Wars Original Trilogy could actually be better, like its impossible that they made mistakes in the original shooting of the films or simply ran out of time to get everything as they would have liked which is the most likely case.

On the contrary it seems like you are not willing to entertain the idea that restoring something to the original version might be better. I'm not the type of guy who thinks everything should be restored, hell, I think I've questioned before if this project is trying to be a preservation (can't remember for what reason, probably colors). But is it so hard to think that ady and me and others might just think that the ESB framing is better?

Also, this wasn't a mistake. Kersh, the DP, and the set crew knew exactly what they were doing when they extended the cockpit and framed the shot the way they did. "Ran out of time when they were shooting"? Are you kidding me? This shot would have been planned before shooting even began. If any film ran out of time it was ANH.

Take a look again at those two cockpit shots again, from ANH and ESB. What's been changed is the set (which is better, by the way, more detailed and undoubtedly more expensive), and the framing, ever so slightly. Maybe you can see more of the window, but you know that the window's curved, right? It's not just perpendicular? Don't you think they knew what they were doing when they framed the shot? Also, it looks to me like you can see more of the curve in the ANH shot. It's just better lit in ESB. Another thing that's changed is Han and Chewie are farther apart. This is obviously to give space where we can see Leia and 3PO more clearly.

Finally, and probably the most important point, the cropped shot is of lower quality. That should be the first, last, and only reason you need to accept restoring it back.

If this doesn't get through to you, then whatever, so be it. But accept that this is what ady is doing and move on with it.