All Things Star Trek — Page 37

DrCrowTStarwars said:

Warbler said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

SilverWook said:

bkev said:

I think it only reaches rape level of creepy very few times, but there's a clear focus on Kirk getting the girl because he's the hero.  Still enjoy TOS, for sure, but I'm more enthralled by DS9.

 I'm sorry, you're going to have to cite specific examples of Kirk getting rapey. And The Enemy Within does not count. ;)

The number of times Kirk definitely got laid in the entire series hovers around three. Two of these were scenarios where he was being held captive, Bread and Circuses, Wink of an Eye. One was where he had lost his memory, The Paradise Syndrome.

Eddie Murphy famously did a bit in his stand up show about how "Kirk f****d a green b*tch" but it never actually happened.

 Really so that bit in Mirror Mirror where he grabs that woman and she was trying to break lose from his grip,that doesn't count?

I guess no really means yes.

 He didn't rape her.

If the stuff Kirk did bothers you guys that much, I guess you must really hate the classic Bond movies. 

 Okay I am sorry. Nothing in TOs is dated

never said that nothing was dated.  Please remember I called the show a product of its time.

and anyone who doesn't think every second of the show is perfect and who is uncomfortable with anything on the show is a moron and and should be burned alive in the town square.

I never said that or meant it.  If you don't like the show that is ok.  I was only kidding when I made this post

Warbler said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

Yeah for my money it is the best written Sci-Fi show ever to air on American TV.

WHAT!!??????!!!!

YOU WOULD DARE TO SAY THIS . . . IN A STAR TREK THREAD!!!?!?!?!!!

*beats up DrCrowTStarwars*

Now get the hell out of this thread!  

 if you wish you think B5 is better, ok.   I disagree with you

I am sorry I know that now adays grabbing a woman and not letting go isn't seen as rape.

I could be wrong, but I aways defined rape as forced sexual intercourse.   Grabbing a woman and no letting go, in most instances, is wrong.  But I do not define it as rape.

i guess I was just raised wrong and I am sorry for that. I admit I am the worst person who ever lived because i dared to question the actions of Captain kirk.

You are certainly not raised wrong if you think that way Kirk treated women was wrong some of the time(including the grabbing)

i will now go and kill myself because I am clearly an evil monster who has no right to live. 

I hope you are not serious here

Look I know someone who was raped and the guy who did it never got into any trouble because he used the Kirk argument

I am sorry for what happened to your friend.  I don't know how using Kirk as an example would get him out of trouble.  It is no excuse.

,so excuse me if I am not ready to let him off of the hook as easily as the rest of you.

I suppose I can understand that somewhat.

If you have the grab the woman and she tries to break free that is rape and being undercover is no excuse.

no, it is not rape.  It is wrong, but it is not rape.  Rape is forced sex. 

I'm sorry I know that in the modern world it is wrong to be bothered by things like rape but it still bothers me.

you think the modern world isn't bothered by rape????? 

Sorry I know that makes me an awful person but it just does and I have tried to change but I have not been able to yet.

I wouldn't say you are an awful person, but I do think you are defining rape incorrectly and you are wrong about people today not caring about rape.

This is why I hate Star trek fandom. It's all a bunch of worship and different views are never welcome. 

different views aren't welcome?  of course they are.

All you are ever allowed to say is Kirk is great and Roddenbury is god and created the universe.

not in my book.

Everyone always has to walk in lockstep and never question anything.  For a show that is supposed to be about love and free thinking,the fans are some of the most closed minded and hateful people I have ever met.

I think you are generalizing here a bit.

I am done with this thread I thought maybe it would be different then the Star Trek sites I was a member of in the past seeing as it is on a Star Wars site but it is just more of the same.  I will never get along with other Star Trek fans so I am done trying.

 sorry you feel this way.

Look I am sorry I am not saying all Star Trek is bad but I just can't watch those scenes with Kirk without feeling ill. Sorry if I over reacted but I just don't do well with the type of sexism that was pretty much mainstream in the 1960s.

In my head I guess I know I should just get over it but I can't watch those scenes without thinking too much about them. Sorry.

 its ok. 

myself I am more open to viewing things in the time that they were created.  Not having someone personally known to me who was rapped, I guess makes it easier.  One thing you do have to understand is that if a show were made today and main character threated women the way Kirk does, I would have a problem with that.   If you are unwilling to give older TV shows and older movies some slack in the politically correct department, you will never enjoy a lot of stuff that is older than twenty years.

SilverWook said:

Warbler said:

SilverWook said:The number of times Kirk definitely got laid in the entire series hovers around three.

He only definitely did it in The Paradise Syndrome, the other times were just implied.   

 Kirk putting his boots on, while his ladyfriend combs her hair in his quarters, is pretty strong evidence they did more than cuddle in Wink of an Eye.

Ok, I stand corrected.

And I'm pretty sure he didn't just chat with that roman slave girl either!

 again, we can not tell that he definitely had sex with her. 

Warbler said:

Look I am sorry I am not saying all Star Trek is bad but I just can't watch those scenes with Kirk without feeling ill. Sorry if I over reacted but I just don't do well with the type of sexism that was pretty much mainstream in the 1960s.

In my head I guess I know I should just get over it but I can't watch those scenes without thinking too much about them. Sorry.

 its ok. 

myself I am more open to viewing things in the time that they were created.  Not having someone personally known to me who was rapped, I guess makes it easier.  One thing you do have to understand is that if a show were made today and main character threated women the way Kirk does, I would have a problem with that.   If you are unwilling to give older TV shows and older movies some slack in the politically correct department, you will never enjoy a lot of stuff that is older than twenty years.

 Normally I am I watch a lot of old films but I guess because of my history this is just one issue where I can't get over it. Maybe I over reacted because this is my one hot button issue and I am sorry if I did.  It's just to me it seems like when they have Kirk or James Bond grab a woman and then cut away(Because they were not allowed to show sex on the screen at the time)they are strongly implying that he forced the woman to have sex with him and then they tend to play it as he was so good at sex that she didn't mind him forcing her to have sex with him. 

As I said it's my problem no one else's. It's just the whole "She wanted it" excuse sticks in my craw and always upsets me when I see it or hear it implied.  I really do love Star Trek(Well everything except Voyager and the first two seasons of Enterprise),it's just this one thing that always bugs me. That is all. 

Let's return to talking about the things we like about Star Trek not the things that make us feel ill because they are a hot button issue for us,okay.

My favorite episode is a tie between In the Pale Moonlight and The Trouble with Tribbles. Those are two of the most perfect hours of television ever made if you ask me.

1. I myself would have religious reasons. 

2. what if the slave girl doesn't want to? 

DrCrowTStarwars said:

Warbler said:

Look I am sorry I am not saying all Star Trek is bad but I just can't watch those scenes with Kirk without feeling ill. Sorry if I over reacted but I just don't do well with the type of sexism that was pretty much mainstream in the 1960s.

In my head I guess I know I should just get over it but I can't watch those scenes without thinking too much about them. Sorry.

 its ok. 

myself I am more open to viewing things in the time that they were created.  Not having someone personally known to me who was rapped, I guess makes it easier.  One thing you do have to understand is that if a show were made today and main character threated women the way Kirk does, I would have a problem with that.   If you are unwilling to give older TV shows and older movies some slack in the politically correct department, you will never enjoy a lot of stuff that is older than twenty years.

 Normally I am I watch a lot of old films but I guess because of my history this is just one issue where I can't get over it. Maybe I over reacted because this is my one hot button issue and I am sorry if I did.  It's just to me it seems like when they have Kirk or James Bond grab a woman and then cut away(Because they were not allowed to show sex on the screen at the time)they are strongly implying that he forced the woman to have sex with him

I guees we are just having different interpretations on what is being implied. 

and then they tend to play it as he was so good at sex that she didn't mind him forcing her to have sex with him. 

As I said it's my problem no one else's. It's just the whole "She wanted it" excuse sticks in my craw and always upsets me when I see it or hear it implied.

just so it is clear, I would not accept either an excuse for rape.  There is no excuse for raping someone. 

 I really do love Star Trek(Well everything except Voyager and the first two seasons of Enterprise),it's just this one thing that always bugs me. That is all.

considering what happened to your friend, I can understand why it would bug you.

 

Let's return to talking about the things we like about Star Trek not the things that make us feel ill because they are a hot button issue for us,okay.

My favorite episode is a tie between In the Pale Moonlight and The Trouble with Tribbles. Those are two of the most perfect hours of television ever made if you ask me.

 can't say "In the Pale Moonlight" is anywhere near my favorite, but The Trouble with Tribbles sure is.  I also loved its sequel in DS9

Oh yeah that episode is great and I love Worf's line about not talking about why Klingons look different to outsiders.

Oh and mistaking Chekov for Kirk is an all time great moment too.

doubleofive said:

SilverWook said:

ALL HAIL THE SKANT

 I think they look pretty sexy on the guys too but do men wax their legs in the 24th Century?

My mom always has a good laugh at that guy when she watches Encounter at Farpoint.

It's the 24th Century, I have no problem with guys wearing skirts...the hairless legs however...

SilverWook said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

Oh yeah that episode is great and I love Worf's line about not talking about why Klingons look different to outsiders.

Oh and mistaking Chekov for Kirk is an all time great moment too.

 Actually, they mistake the fellow sitting with Chekov and Scotty for Kirk. The inside joke is that actor was also Shatner's stunt double. ;)

 OOOhhhhh,that's right.  Can't believe I forgot that.

I'll have to rewatch that episode again,it's been a while since I saw it last.

SilverWook said:

DuracellEnergizer said:

DrCrowTStarwars said:

This is why I hate Star trek fandom. It's all a bunch of worship and different views are never welcome.  All you are ever allowed to say is Kirk is great and Roddenbury is god and created the universe. Everyone always has to walk in lockstep and never question anything.  For a show that is supposed to be about love and free thinking,the fans are some of the most closed minded and hateful people I have ever met.

To be honest, I think Kirk is just okay (Sisko is far better) and that Roddenberry was just another conceited, revisionist hack like Lucas.

 Making the TNG era a more politically correct utopian age, devoid of interpersonal conflict, is not akin to making silly changes to your old movies and forcing them down the fans' throats. Not by a long shot.

Perhaps I'm using too much hyperbole yet again. From what I've read about the man, though, he seems to share the same conceited opinion of himself and his influence upon Star Trek that Lucas has in regards to Star Wars. And how he tried to remove references to TOS in TNG reeks of Lucas-style "original vision" BS.

Frankly, I think that if Roddenberry have lived to see the SE, he probably would have tried to follow Lucas' example and re-edit TOS into meshing with TNG.

I liked Sisko, but the revelation that he really was the Kwistaz Haderach of the wormhole aliens was a bit much.

To be honest, I stopped watching DS9 with the second-to-last episode of Season 6, so I never bore witness to any of the peculiarities/absurdities that followed thereafter.

pittrek said:

- TNG aliens - I have never ever seen so realistically looking aliens as in TNG/DS9/VOY. Westmore's team did an amazing job. Unfortunately they started to do CG aliens in Voyager and later Enterprise, they look horrible. I'm also really glad they used humanoids, it's the most probable way how aliens would look like.

Yeah, it's so realistic that virtually 99% of all sentient species in the galaxy would evolve to look, sound, and act like humans save for a few forehead ridges and pointed ears. *rollseyes*

No, to be honest, alien life out there shouldn't look much like humanity at all. If anything, it should look like this:

or this

- no internal conflict on TNG - it's actually a GOOD thing. That's the reason why millions of people all over the planet LOVE the show. BECAUSE the main characters are friends, and the conflict always comes from the outside. It also adds a further element of reality. If you're away in space for 10 years you simply MUST like the people you meet on a daily basis. Otherwise you'd get crazy.

Your argument hinges on the precept that friends/family never have any major arguments or fights. Unfortunately, things don't work that way; in the real world, even people who love one another deeply aren't going to agree on every single little thing.

Having it so that Riker never questions Picard's orders -- or anything else along those lines -- makes the characters and their relationships look flat and inauthentic.

Picard and Riker fought all the timeand those briefing room scenes in every episode would show the crew arguing over what the right thing to do was before Picard put his foot down and made his choice,you know just like Kirk use to do with Spock and McCoy. How many knock down drag out fights and personal problems were there between the crew members on TOS again? Because I don't remember any unless you count Spock getting infected with the spores or Pon Far and that is an outside influence and not an internal conflict. You are cheery picking your examples to make TNG look bad and TOS look good.

For example you are acting like TOS always used aliens that looked like the rock creature for Devil in the Dark when a more typical example of what aliens looked like on the show would be The Apple.  While you don't give TNG credit for aliens like the Crystalline Entity or the Sheliak.

This seems very personal for you and you seem to be going out of your way to make unfair personal attacks against the show and the people who worked on it. My guess is that you are one of those stuck in the mud old school TOS fans who sent Patrick Steward death threats for his crime of daring to try and replace Shatner.  You need to take a step back and take off the rose tinted glasses and see that TOS was not perfect and TNG did not have an unlimited budget. I don't believe anyone working on TNg was lazy,lazy people don't work 18 hour days and don't completely rewrite scripts that have been sent to them at the last minute because the story isn't working.

I will admit in the third season when Roddenberry stopped controlling the day to day TNG showed a massive improvement in the story and character department,but you seem to be grasping at any reason to hate this show as if it hurt somehow or you think the people behind it are guilty of some kind of crime and should be in jail or death row.

Can the franchise ever recover from JJ Abrams, or was TNG the last good thing the franchise ever did?

Yeah I am not sure. i would say the last two seasons of Enterprise were okay but it will take a lot to get me into a theater to see another Star Trek movie after Into Darkness.  That was Attack of the Clones level bad and I don't plan on getting burned again.  I have seen all the Star Trek movies released in my life time in theaters but never again after that,I'll wait for the DvD of any new movies. If they make new movies,that seems up in the air at the moment.