Info & Help Wanted: 'Star Trek - The Motion Picture'; Laserdisc Color Timing and Audio

Greetings,

Some of you might have noticed my thread in the fan edit section. I’m currently working on a fan edit of TMP and am finding myself in need of a color timing reference as well as the original PCM soundmix.

From what I understand there are two LDs out there: widescreen theatrical, and panscan SLV. If possible, I’m looking to get a bit perfect copy of the SLV and Theatrical PCM stereo mixes and 264 compressed copies of the video from both discs as well. Given that the HDTV broadcast, Directors Cut DVD, Blu-Ray, HD trailers, and Blu-Ray pre-“restoration” special features all have different color timing I’m suspect as to what is most faithful to the original negative. Assuming the LDs do not have different color timing then the widescreen LD would suffice, assuming they have different, then wouldn’t the SLV LD have more accurate color as it was released first?

I’d do it myself however I am completely lacking in LD equipment and need to save up for a grading monitor as well!

If anyone would like to assist in this matter, don’t hesitate to reply to this thread or leave a PM : ).

-S

Synnöve said:

Greetings,

Some of you might have noticed my thread in the fan edit section. I'm currently working on a fan edit of TMP and am finding myself in need of a color timing reference as well as the original PCM soundmix.

From what I understand there are two LDs out there: widescreen theatrical, and panscan SLV. If possible, I'm looking to get a bit perfect copy of the SLV and Theatrical PCM stereo mixes and 264 compressed copies of the video from both discs as well. Given that the HDTV broadcast, Directors Cut DVD, Blu-Ray, HD trailers, and Blu-Ray pre-"restoration" special features all have different color timing I'm suspect as to what is most faithful to the original negative. Assuming the LDs do not have different color timing then the widescreen LD would suffice, assuming they have different, then wouldn't the SLV LD have more accurate color as it was released first?

I'd do it myself however I am completely lacking in LD equipment and need to save up for a grading monitor as well!

If anyone would like to assist in this matter, don't hesitate to reply to this thread or leave a PM : ).

-S

FanFiltration is the one to ask as he did a release of the SLV a ways back.  I know I have a copy of it on DVDr.  What is the actual source you're editing?  You mention more than one version above but don't mention what you're working from. 

Heck, if you get all the stuff you're requesting it might leave you little to do, LOL.

FF's inbox has been full for a while now : \

For my fanedit I'm using primarily the blu (color corrected of course), HDTV broadcast for some shots, director's DVD for a few other shots, and the SLV scenes from the blu extras.

The main reason I'm looking for a laserdisc transfer is to have a reference for the color grading and the original PCM soundmix to build off of, as I really do not like surround upmixes like the 7.1 track for the blu, nor do I wish to work from lossy sources like the AC3 mixes.

Aside from a lot of dirt being cleaned up in the picture, the biggest reason for primarily working with the blu is that the HD Broadcast has a LOT of compression artifacts and doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. It also seems to be framed differently as well as having some squashing or stretching here or there compared to the blu. And while contrast boosting was done (at the expense of shadow detail and highlights in too many scenes), the DVD and HD broadcasts were very dim in places... I'm not sure why this is the case, but when I look at the HD transfers of the trailers they do not show this dimness, nor do some of the LD screencaps that I've seen.

I think Buster D has ripped the audio from the widescreen disc - he quite likely hasn't synced it yet, though since you're making an edit rather than a restoration I guess you'll just sync as you go.

I did it myself a while back but while it's synced to the BD picture it wasn't a bitperfect rip, and I have yet to find the time for a version 2.

You might also take this opportunity to reinstate the theatrical subtitles... judging from the LD they were originally set in Bauhaus, but subsequent releases have used generic softsubs for the Vulcan and Klingon lines.

The HDTV cap has burnt-in subs.  I don't know if they're the theatrical ones or not.

A few years ago, I completed a custom 3 DVD set with a widescreen reconstruction of the Special Longer Version and a copy of the Theatrical Cut with the orignal subtitle typeface.  I might have also used the LD audio for the TC, but I don't remember.  Unfortunately, my DVD+R DL backups went bad and the copies I thought I'd made to my external HD weren't there.  And, to add insult to injury, the few people I sent physical copies to (I think there were only 3) couldn't be bothered to help me create backups from their discs.  Swell :/

Now that my sob story is finished, one thing I did notice at that time (and did save as a screengrab) was an alternate shot used during the mindmeld scene on Vulcan.  The Deleted Scenes on the '02 DVD and the LD featured one version, while the '09 DVD/BD and Director's Cut featured another.  The hand placement and Spock's expressions are slightly different.

(Please note this screengrab was after I'd completed my "lost" custom disc and does feature the replaced subtitles.)

I wonder which is true to the original Theatrical Cut.  I lean toward the first.

When creating the DE they did have access to the reels I believe, and could therefore scan whatever they wanted to use (there are several cases of alternate shots being used). However a lot of the FX footage for the model work was lost or destroyed so no re-compositing was done.

I suspect that the 2009 DVD & Blu-Ray is a new scan, as the frame geometry is different vs the 2002 DVD and HD broadcast (I'd guess the HD broadcast was the transfer they used for the 2002 DE). Based on the trailer transfers included on the blu-ray (footage least likely to be messed with), and some of the LD captures I've seen, I'd conjecture that none of the post LD transfers reflect the theatrical presentation:

-The 2002 DVD and HDTV copies were re-color-timed according to the people who worked on it. Compared to the trailers and some LD captures it has a heavy red push and has a low gamma value for some reason, however the highlights are well preserved resulting in high contrast in several scenes with no blown highlights. The print, unfortunately, either wasn't properly cleaned or has a lot of dirt embedded in it, as it's a very dirty transfer.

-The 2009 DVD and Blu have different color timing that in some cases matches the trailers and LD captures, however in place of the red push for the prior transfer there is a heavy blu push, and the color saturation has also been increased. The gamma issue seems to be fixed in most scenes, however it seems to have completely washed out certain shots, while in others the highlights and black levels are blown out to clipping (some one wasn't watching their scopes it seems)*. And of course there are a lot of issues with unnecessary levels of grain removal, transfer errors, frozen grain fields, etc.

To make matters even more complicated, in one of the TMP documentaries there is spliced in footage of the transfer made for the blu-ray release, before it was DNRed, color timed, and went through digital dirt removal, with yet still different color timing! All of these reasons are why I'm looking for a basic digital copy of the LD that retains color fidelity, as I'm wagering it's probably the transfer that was least tampered with going from film to DI.

*The black levels can be explained because the many levels of optical compositing raised the black level of the film print, which resulted in many shots having a dark gray background for space. The colorist must have tried to "fix that" by lowering the black level of the space field so it's actually black, but this also crushed a lot of detail in several of those scenes.

How useful would the deleted scenes be as a color reference? The directors cut dvd had a pretty extensive collection, from throughout the movie.

(its too bad the new FX seems to be the big roadblock to getting the new cut on blu, for me at least, those new shots ultimately contributed very little, the new cut of the existing material was by far the more important thing)

Just to clarify, the shot listed in the picture above as "2002 DVD" is from the "deleted scenes" section, not the actually Director's Cut presentation, and is the same version found on the LD.

The deleted scenes are hard to judge given they're non-anamorphic NTSC. I don't have time to check all my sources at the moment, but from memory they have their own timing, different from the DE.

I agree, I'd kill to have all those character scenes in HD, as I'm not looking forward to upscaling NTSC.

Does anyone have professional experience in color grading? Using Davinci Resolve or some similar software?

Sorry, I meant it's the same take (which varies from that of the '09 edition) as the LD, not that the color timing is the same.  But, I can confirm the deleted scenes on the NTSC release are 16x9 anamorphic, since I used them as a source in my now lost '83 reconstruction.