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Jimbo your arguments are the most ignorant, hate-filled, unChristian bigotry.

You are nothing if not a consistent twat.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
If they accidently kill themselves trying to get an illegal abortion I say good fucking ridence. A human is a human from conception. If you take a human life you deserve to loose yours.


jeeze, jimbo how bout a little mercy? There many who are found guilty of murder but are not executed. Remember, the morality of the death penalty is also questioned by many.

And they are not sluttly whores.

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OK, I don't consider the abortion topic to be political, so I'll be giving my two cents here. If anyone gets offended, please let me know, and I'll not talk about it again.

I do consider abortion the worse thing a person could do, not only to him(her)self, but to his(her) own child. How can someone kill their own child because they "didn't want him", or "didn't expect him", or "can't afford it". That's simply bullshit, if you can afford having someone to have sex with, you can afford the child.

OK, and there comes some other issues. Raping victims, should they abort their own child? I say no, because the child will not have contact with that monster who raped that woman, and even in such condition a child can be loved and raised properly. If the family is too poor to raise a child, should it be aborted? HELL NO, those people who support that kind of abortion should fix the pooverty problem in the first place! And what if the mother's life is in danger because of the pregnancy? Well... it should be verified by doctors, and if the child would kill the mother AND himself, then an abortion would be inevitable... BUT if the child might live, even though the mother dies, the abortion should NOT be done: I don't know about you, but I would give my own life so my child would live without even thinking about it.

It's not a question of "oh, the child must die because it's going to be a pain in the ass for me", raising and loving our childs is part of the human nature, it's what makes us so special, and if we start killing our own unborn childs whenever we want, then we will stop being human beings.

By the way, abortion supporters, if you had an abortion sometime in your life, and then have a child some time later, would you have the guts to tell your child that you had an abortion before he/she was born? Woudln't your child think "It could have been me... Mommy could have killed me because she wanted to..."

Jimbo, I never thought I would say this, but I agree with you 100%
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Hmmm... I like you ric so I'm going to tread carefully on this. This is NOT a personal attack.

Sex is free but children are expensive. Hey, I didn't make the rules.

It's uncaring cruelty bordering on inhumanity to expect a rape-victim/rape-baby relationship to work. In an ideal world the child would not be affected by the 'sins of the father' but we do not live in an ideal world. We live in an imperfect world where the mother would see the ugly face of her attacker each and everytime she looked at her unwanted child. Is this fair? No, but is it the truth? Yes. Forcing a victim to raise her rapist's offspring is one of the most perfect acts of cruelty I can imagine.

Is it right to abort dividing cells when the resultant human will not be anything more than a drain on the family and the community? Tough question. Do I believe that it is the parent's right to decide? Yes I do. How many more ghettobaby car-thieves do we need?

Many people would willingly give their lives for their loved ones but how anyone could expect a mother with a life and place in society to give up her life so that the tissue inside her can be entered into the welfare system to bounce around getting used and abused before finally being ejected into the world as a bitter institutionalised uncared for human is beyond me. That's like trading a fuctioning person for a maladjusted criminal.

Yes I definitely agree that we should solve the problems of inequality and poverty. Hmmm, maybe if we all stopped pumping so much money into artillery and the machines of war we could afford to feed, clothe and shelter the homeless instead of incarcerating them and we could look after those less fortunate rather than killing people in far off countries just because we don't agree with them and they happen to be sitting on all our oil. Just a thought.
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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Ric, Reg, those have to be the most well-thoughtout arguments on the issue I've read. Personally, I truly have no stance on it. It's not something I think about. However, I do want the point out the civility of the discussion. It proves that two people can have a deeply personal debate without attacking others. People like jimbo could learn a thing or two from you guys.


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

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And what if the mother's life is in danger because of the pregnancy? Well... it should be verified by doctors, and if the child would kill the mother AND himself, then an abortion would be inevitable...

Ric, I respect that you feel the way you do, and especially that you realize special scenarios. But I wonder how you feel about this scenario?
If a girl is 14 and raped by her father, and becomes pregnant, what then? Should she raise that child, the product of incest and abuse? I know this is strictly hypotheitcal, but I think that you have to maintain a position, we dont want any Kerry-esque waffling.

This isnt personal, but I think that its important to understand: passing a law about abortion will most likely be an "all or none" situation.
And for all those slutty whores attacks, here's something to chew on: A growing percentage of abortions in America are performed on women in marriages who dont like the sex of their unborn child.
"You don't own space, so stop actin' like you do."
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Originally posted by: ricarleite
OK, I don't consider the abortion topic to be political, so I'll be giving my two cents here. If anyone gets offended, please let me know, and I'll not talk about it again.

I do consider abortion the worse thing a person could do, not only to him(her)self, but to his(her) own child. How can someone kill their own child because they "didn't want him", or "didn't expect him", or "can't afford it". That's simply bullshit, if you can afford having someone to have sex with, you can afford the child.

OK, and there comes some other issues. Raping victims, should they abort their own child? I say no, because the child will not have contact with that monster who raped that woman, and even in such condition a child can be loved and raised properly. If the family is too poor to raise a child, should it be aborted? HELL NO, those people who support that kind of abortion should fix the pooverty problem in the first place! And what if the mother's life is in danger because of the pregnancy? Well... it should be verified by doctors, and if the child would kill the mother AND himself, then an abortion would be inevitable... BUT if the child might live, even though the mother dies, the abortion should NOT be done: I don't know about you, but I would give my own life so my child would live without even thinking about it.

It's not a question of "oh, the child must die because it's going to be a pain in the ass for me", raising and loving our childs is part of the human nature, it's what makes us so special, and if we start killing our own unborn childs whenever we want, then we will stop being human beings.

By the way, abortion supporters, if you had an abortion sometime in your life, and then have a child some time later, would you have the guts to tell your child that you had an abortion before he/she was born? Woudln't your child think "It could have been me... Mommy could have killed me because she wanted to..."

Jimbo, I never thought I would say this, but I agree with you 100%


I would say if its to save the mothers life is the only time abortion should be legal. Even then I would disagree since the life of the child is more important. Even if the child would be affected by sins of the father its better then death in the womb. Pretty much I agree with you 100% to. You seem to be supportive of Kerry though. Vote for Kerry and the blood of those children is on your hands.
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Jimbo, arguing that anyone who votes for Kerry has the blood of aborted children on their hands is really not very logical. I mean, abortion is legal now, but not because Kerry is president, so essentially, the blood is on every American's hands - already. Including yours. You support Bush, and he's been in office for 4 years - abortion is STILL legal, so is the blood on his hands? Is the blood on all his supporters hands?
The debate you need to be taking up is that life begins at conception. And im here to tell you thats a philisophical debate bub, so get ready for a long one. But until you establish that, on grounds other than religious, you have nothing to stand on.
I dont mean to be so closed minded about this, but there is no room in a discussion of potential law for religion. Thats just not the way this country works - or shouldnt be.

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I would say if its to save the mothers life is the only time abortion should be legal. Even then I would disagree since the life of the child is more important.

Jimbo, do me a favor, and compare this statement to your current signiture (that Kerry quote). Let me know if you see any similarities.
"You don't own space, so stop actin' like you do."
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Originally posted by: Warbler
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Originally posted by: jimbo
If they accidently kill themselves trying to get an illegal abortion I say good fucking ridence. A human is a human from conception. If you take a human life you deserve to loose yours.


jeeze, jimbo how bout a little mercy? There many who are found guilty of murder but are not executed. Remember, the morality of the death penalty is also questioned by many.

And they are not sluttly whores.


They are slutty whores. Who think that they can do whatever they want without consequence. I have no sympathy for them at all. I strongly support the death penilty. Don't know where Kerry stands on the death penilty. I don't know where he stands on everything. He keeps changing his mind.
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Originally posted by: Lethe
Jimbo, arguing that anyone who votes for Kerry has the blood of aborted children on their hands is really not very logical. I mean, abortion is legal now, but not because Kerry is president, so essentially, the blood is on every American's hands - already. Including yours. You support Bush, and he's been in office for 4 years - abortion is STILL legal, so is the blood on his hands? Is the blood on all his supporters hands?
The debate you need to be taking up is that life begins at conception. And im here to tell you thats a philisophical debate bub, so get ready for a long one. But until you establish that, on grounds other than religious, you have nothing to stand on.
I dont mean to be so closed minded about this, but there is no room in a discussion of potential law for religion. Thats just not the way this country works - or shouldnt be.

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I would say if its to save the mothers life is the only time abortion should be legal. Even then I would disagree since the life of the child is more important.

Jimbo, do me a favor, and compare this statement to your current signiture (that Kerry quote). Let me know if you see any similarities.


Bush has done everything in his power to end baby murdering. The fuckers on the Supreme Court won't let him bann it fully. Kerry supports baby murdering. How can you say Kerry cares about us when he is willing to let people be senslessly murdered.
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Here is a concept Jimbo, the President appoints the Supreme Court. So what does that tell you. People he appointed himself dont agree with his/your position on abortion. OR if they do agree, they realize that it doesnt hold up as law.
Kerry supports the right of the people to choose for themselves. If you have a problem with the choices people make, attack them, but not the person who is maintaining the appropriate position of the government. When we start to lose our personal rights because of policy decisions from the President, thats a regretable day.

p.s. Ive never really taken a stance for or against either of these Candidates Jimbo, so ive never personally said that either candidate cares about life; if you'd like to know my opinion - its quite the opposite. I dont believe that either of these Candidates is overly concerned with the opinion of any single American who isnt contributing vast sums of money. If you believe otherwise, you are naive.
"You don't own space, so stop actin' like you do."
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Originally posted by: Lethe
Here is a concept Jimbo, the President appoints the Supreme Court. So what does that tell you. People he appointed himself dont agree with his/your position on abortion. OR if they do agree, they realize that it doesnt hold up as law.
Kerry supports the right of the people to choose for themselves. If you have a problem with the choices people make, attack them, but not the person who is maintaining the appropriate position of the government. When we start to lose our personal rights because of policy decisions from the President, thats a regretable day.

p.s. Ive never really taken a stance for or against either of these Candidates Jimbo, so ive never personally said that either candidate cares about life; if you'd like to know my opinion - its quite the opposite. I dont believe that either of these Candidates is overly concerned with the opinion of any single American who isnt contributing vast sums of money. If you believe otherwise, you are naive.


Hello supreme court Justices are there for life. Most of them were appointed by earlier administrations with dirt fucks like Bill Clinton who support baby murdering. NOBODY SHOULD HAVE THE CHOICE TO DECIDE WHETHER A CHILD LIVES OR DIES. Do I have the right to choose if I want to kill my parents. No. Do I have the right to choose if I want to burn my cat. No. There are some things that a human should not be allowed to choose. I can't think of anything more deserving of this then abortion. The most disgusting thing a human can do.
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Originally posted by: jimbo


I would say if its to save the mothers life is the only time abortion should be legal. Even then I would disagree since the life of the child is more important. Even if the child would be affected by sins of the father its better then death in the womb. Pretty much I agree with you 100% to. You seem to be supportive of Kerry though. Vote for Kerry and the blood of those children is on your hands.


Well, Jimbo, first of all, I'm not an american, so I will not vote for Kerry or Bush.

The only thing I cannot understand about the liberals is that they support abortion... Isn't that odd? I mean, I'm an ultra-left liberal, I'm almost a freaking anarchist, yet I'm completly against abortion.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering
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Originally posted by: Regicidal_Maniac
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
Dude, Reg. Things like that are completely uncalled for. How can you hate a man so much to say something like that when you've likely never met him personally. I mean, for crying out loud, we are fighting a war in which millions of Muslims are beeing/ have been liberated, and many "white American Christians" have died.

What is it with your hostility to caucasians, Americans, and the saved?


As usual we're off topic, uless you REALLY believe that there is no seperation between Church and State and that 'God puts world leaders in place'. IF there were a 'God' or all-powerful, all-knowing supernatural force at once infinite and singular then He does not put anyone in place on Earth that happens after their death, to everyone.

I have no hostility to Caucasians, I am one. I just feel that non Caucasians have the right to continue living their lives also. Sorry if that doesn't jive with 'it is written'.

I LOVE Americans I live in Australia which is rapidly becoming the 51st State. You guys are my brothers.



Liberated Iraqis. Liberated from their limbs, lives and loved ones. Did they put their faith in the wrong imaginary friend? Perhaps if they prayed to 'God' he may have told his conduit on Earth not to order carpet bombing of their villages.

And why is my love of human life uncalled for when Jimbo's love of human suffering is acceptable?


I have no idea how it works with democracy. There were no democracies in the world when the New Testament was written, so I cant explain how it works.

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And as far as 'the saved' it is my firm belief that people can believe in whatever fairytales make them happy. Until their fairytales start getting enforced as law or foreign policy and begin to make other people of differing ideologies unhappy or dead.


What in the name of all that is right are you talking about. I am not talking about fairlytales. I am talking about the God of the universe. I hope I am not the only one sick and tired of your disrespectful unbelief. This isn't Cinderella to whom I refer. It is Jesus Christ. No one is trying to force anybody to believe anything. that is impossible. But reffering to God as Bush's imaginary friend is way over the line of insantiy. Do you not belive that Bush is sincere? Beleive that he is playing us for fools or something? Or do you just not accept God's existence at all? What is it with you?

Bush has given no-one any reason to believe that he is anything but the upright God-fearing man that he claims to be, and yet liberals and terrorists and depots constantly demean him.

They demean him for liberating millions of Arabs living in fear that their opinions will get them killed.
They attack him for fighting aganst evil social crap like abortion and gay marriage.
You demean him for his faith itself, Reg!

I think it is pointless to argue this further; you've shown me where you stand. This is over for me.

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Okay. This is the one and ONLY time I will EVER get into a political argument on this or any forum. It is the only time I will post my thoughts on this.

First, Bush is a fucking moron. We need a President who can complete a simple sentence.

Second. Jimbo, abortion is NOT the only issue NOR THE MOST IMPORTANT in the world....

(I edited it because Jimbo completely missed my point. And I did promise never to post again in a political debate.)
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Originally posted by: ChainsawAsh
Okay. This is the one and ONLY time I will EVER get into a political argument on this or any forum. It is the only time I will post my thoughts on this.

First, Bush is a fucking moron. We need a President who can complete a simple sentence.

Second. Jimbo, abortion is NOT the only issue in the world....


True but its by far the most important. Kerry is the better speaker. Bush is the better President.
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Originally posted by: Darth Chaltab
What in the name of all that is right are you talking about. I am not talking about fairlytales. I am talking about the God of the universe. I hope I am not the only one sick and tired of your disrespectful unbelief. This isn't Cinderella to whom I refer. It is Jesus Christ. No one is trying to force anybody to believe anything. that is impossible. But reffering to God as Bush's imaginary friend is way over the line of insantiy. Do you not belive that Bush is sincere? Beleive that he is playing us for fools or something? Or do you just not accept God's existence at all? What is it with you?


I didn't bring religion to this discussion, it was here before me.

Now I don't want to get on the wrong side of the religious moral majority because I know from first hand experience what an angry bunch of hate-filled hypocrites they can be when discussions regarding ethics and humanity turn into arguments about faith. So I will say this and repeat it; believe whatever you wish to believe.

"I know the Bible is correct, because it is the Word of God, and I know it is the Word of God, because it says so in the Bible."

It is a fairytale based on the ancient Greek myth of Herakles (son of Zeus, raised by mortals, performed heroic labours and rid the world of monsters before finally venturing into the Underworld/Hades and being reborn as a Olympian/God).

I am quite happy for you, and whomever else wants to, to believe whatever you wish to so long as you don't try to base laws on things that are as verifiable and have as much bearing on the physical world as the toothfairy.

But whatever helps you get through life and gives you strength to struggle through without going mad can't be all bad. Do unto others is the golden peanut.

Believe what you want but don't use such unprovable, untestable, untenable beliefs to justify laws or foreign policy that impacts upon the lives of, impinges on the freedoms of and enacts control over others whom you deem to be heathens or whatever just because they don't believe in the unquestionable word of your old book.

If as I said there were an all-powerful, all-knowing supernatural force at once infinite and singular, then it would want to KNOW everything, the good and the bad. If all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration and we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively, then there is no such thing as death, life is only a dream, and you are the imagination of yourself. When the ride is over every living thing rejoins the singularity for a debrief and how long you spend in the bad place depends on how long you want to before you make the choice to end the suffering and rejoin the light.

This is a common belief amongst those who have had Near Death Experiences, 'mind expanding' drug trips, or suffered dissociative states of mind. It lends credence to the theory that all religious belief can be traced back to the hallucinogenic bark of an African tree known as Iboga (the tree of knowledge). Then fragmented, bastardised, mythologised, organised and militarised. Now they all fight over which is the one true fairytale. But the fighting is all for bullshit reasons.

What matters is how you act in life, how you treat others in life and how you live with that until you die.

Nothing else matters. It matters not what you believe, nor what I believe because in the end we all die. So why should there be any suffering on Earth? We all have one life, and one life only and it should not be a miserable one no matter what the oft-translated words of a 2000 year old Chinese-whisper have been forced to mean.

I'm not trying to unconvert you, that would be pointless but I am trying to make you see the light.

I am a liberal humanist and I believe that clashes in ideologues are keeping us back. If humanity could move beyond petty things such as intolerant religious beliefs and nationalism we'd realise we're just one species sharing one planet, a tiny blue speck in an infinite universe. We're lucky but we're not blessed. Let's just make the most of it why not?

I'll close with the words of Bill Hicks who said it, and everything else, best:
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"The world is like a ride in an amusement park. And when you choose to go on it, you think it's real because that's how powerful our minds are. And the ride goes up and down and round and round. It has thrills and chills and it's very brightly coloured and it's very loud and it's fun, for a while. Some people have been on the ride for a long time and they begin to question, is this real, or is this just a ride? And other people have remembered, and they come back to us, they say, "Hey - don't worry, don't be afraid, ever, because, this is just a ride..." And we... kill those people.

"We have a lot invested in this ride. Shut him up. Look at my furrows of worry. Look at my big bank account and my family. This just has to be real." Just a ride. But we always kill those good guys who try and tell us that, you ever notice that? And let the demons run amok. But it doesn't matter because: It's just a ride. And we can change it anytime we want. It's only a choice. No effort, no work, no job, no savings and money. A choice, right now, between fear and love. The eyes of fear want you to put bigger locks on your doors, buy guns, close yourself off. The eyes of love, instead, see all of us as one. Here's what we can do to change the world, right now, to a better ride. Take all that money that we spend on weapons and defences each year and instead spend it feeding and clothing and educating the poor of the world, which it would many times over, not one human being excluded, and we could explore space, together, both inner and outer, forever, in peace. Thank you very much, you've been great."
Bill Hicks (December 16, 1961 -- February 26, 1994)
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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Kerry I also believes in God though goes against the church in every way. Another flip flop. I believe in God not because the bible said so but because I believe the basic functions of life are simply to complex to have arrision without any intelligent help. I believe in a slow graduel process guided by an intelligent force. I agree that fighting or hating someone for religous reasons is stupid. More of a reason I want to send terrorsists to Hell.
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Thats a well thought out post Regicidal. Bill Hicks definitely has some great thoughts. Its too bad that most people just write him off as an eccentric.

Jimbo, you consistently ignore questions posted to you by others. You neglect to pay attention to new challenges, and hide behind your rhetoric with ever increasing stubborness. Sound familiar?
"You don't own space, so stop actin' like you do."
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Regicidal,


Do you have to call religous belief 'fairytales'? That is very offensive. Who are you to say that God doesn't exist? How do you know? I respect your right to believe their is no God. And I agree with you that religous belief should not used a basis for making laws. But please respect other peoples' right to believe in God. You don't have to demean people just because you disagree with their religous beliefs. Be careful that your beliefs do make you intollerent of others.


One last thing: trying to prove or disprove the existents of god is pointless. It can't be done one way or the other.
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Originally posted by: jimbo

Kerry made some arguements that are so God damn fucked up


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Originally posted by: jimbo

It lives thats what the flying fuck happens.


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Originally posted by: jimbo

I say good fucking ridence. Our country doesn't need slutly whores like them.


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Originally posted by: jimbo

If they accidently kill themselves trying to get an illegal abortion I say good fucking ridence.


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Originally posted by: jimbo

The fuckers on the Supreme Court won't let him bann it fully.



*Warbler washes Jimbo's mouth out with soap*

could we please keep the bad words to a minimal? That goes for everyone else too.
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Originally posted by: Warbler
Regicidal,

Do you have to call religous belief 'fairytales'? That is very offensive.


True, no I don't HAVE to, but I feel it is my way of countering the 'truth'.

I'm sorry to have offended and do not mean to belittle the beliefs of others but this is what *I* believe.

I think I said I'm happy to see people believe whatever they want so long as no harm comes of it.

So where's the harm in what I'm saying?

I'm not deliberately trying to be obstinate but I won't be silenced either.

NOTE: I know that's not what you were trying to do as you were very rational in your criticisms, which I respect.

But if group C can say 'God exists' why cannot group A say 'God does not'?

Where's the harm?
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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I just think that neither group should say "god exists" or "god does not exist" what they should say is "I believe god exists" or "I don't believe god exists" or how about, "I think god exists" or "I don't think god exists". You don't know for a fact that god doesn't exist, you only believe it, so don't talk as if you do know it as a fact. When you do, you sound as bad as those "hate filled hypocrits" that you critized. (please understand I am not saying you are one.)
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Unfortunately Warbler, most people dont mind taking their beliefs so seriously that they regard them as fact. Im not going to assume one way or the other with Regicidal, he may not be that silly. But if he did, hypothetically, I think he wouldnt be alone in that. I sincerely doubt Jimbo will confess that all he has are beliefs and not facts - there are very few people (I would assert) who are of the mindset you are. (Incidentally I am).
Im not telling you that you shouldnt think that way - but you call people to reason who have exhibited no interest in the stuff up to this point. (Thats not a blanket statement for everyone in this post, so hold your scathing retorts please)


-Lethe
"You don't own space, so stop actin' like you do."
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About this whole God exists, God dosen't exists, I've come to a conclusion: God DOES exist, he really does. But he's not a perfect entity, he's sadistical and evil-natured. God hates most of us.
“Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.” — Nazi Reich Marshal Hermann Goering