The thread where we make enemies out of friends, aka the abortion debate thread — Page 23

generalfrevious said:

TV's Frink said:

generalfrevious said:

No matter, oral contraception still kills embryos; the pill is worse than meth, therefore anyone who takes it might as well be committing an abortion anyways. Anyone who disagrees with this is a sociopath that has been brainwashed by the anti-christian, pro-abortion, second(or third)-wave feminist agenda.

 Please seek psychiatric help.  Seriously, you need it, no insult intended.

 That's not me. That's the Roman Catholic church speaking; I cannot disagree with them on any issue, or I will be damned.

If that is honestly your view, then you might need to do some research. You will not go to hell just for disagreeing on something. Not everything the Church teaches is infallible, so feel free to disagree on things that don't have to do with morals and suchlike.

It's shocking that all Catholics who use contraception or disagree with the Humanae Vitae are so contemptuous of God's natural law and the call to purity and chastity, and turn a blind eye to one of the greatest genocides in recorded history. You have no idea how horrible the social impact of the contraceptive oral pill really is to society: families were more stable and loving, women had more dignity than they have now, divorce rates were almost nonexistent, sexually transmitted infections were low, less children were born out of wedlock, and people were less perverted than they are today. The governments of Western Nations are cracking down on the Roman Catholic church by forcing them to murder innocent human beings via contraception and abortions.

On one hand you seem to wholeheartedly agree with the Church's teachings; on the other, you seem to feel trapped by it and want to do away with many of them. I don't get it.

Catholics must always listen to the church elders and obey every law the church lays down; they are Christians first and citizens second. We may sound booted to you, but we will be comforted when we see the Popes in heaven and the Planned Parenthood thugs burning in hell for all eternity. 

 Not all Popes will go to heaven and not all Planned Parenthood supporters will burn in hell. Also, I can't imagine being comforted at the thought of someone going to hell.

Beatleboy99 said:

From the moment if conception, a person is a living, breathing thing.

 Minus the breathing part. :D

Haha true, true.

RicOlie_2 said:

generalfrevious said:

TV's Frink said:

generalfrevious said:

No matter, oral contraception still kills embryos; the pill is worse than meth, therefore anyone who takes it might as well be committing an abortion anyways. Anyone who disagrees with this is a sociopath that has been brainwashed by the anti-christian, pro-abortion, second(or third)-wave feminist agenda.

 Please seek psychiatric help.  Seriously, you need it, no insult intended.

 That's not me. That's the Roman Catholic church speaking; I cannot disagree with them on any issue, or I will be damned.

If that is honestly your view, then you might need to do some research. You will not go to hell just for disagreeing on something. Not everything the Church teaches is infallible, so feel free to disagree on things that don't have to do with morals and suchlike.

This isn't the debate on wether the earth or the sun is in the center of the solar system or not; this is on issues of sex, the first sin man committed against God. They are brainwashing our women in taking a horrendous drug that inevitably lead to the trauma of murdering your own child. There is no grey area, reproductive rights are inherently misogynistic.

It's shocking that all Catholics who use contraception or disagree with the Humanae Vitae are so contemptuous of God's natural law and the call to purity and chastity, and turn a blind eye to one of the greatest genocides in recorded history. You have no idea how horrible the social impact of the contraceptive oral pill really is to society: families were more stable and loving, women had more dignity than they have now, divorce rates were almost nonexistent, sexually transmitted infections were low, less children were born out of wedlock, and people were less perverted than they are today. The governments of Western Nations are cracking down on the Roman Catholic church by forcing them to murder innocent human beings via contraception and abortions.

On one hand you seem to wholeheartedly agree with the Church's teachings; on the other, you seem to feel trapped by it and want to do away with many of them. I don't get it.

That's the devil talking. But we must always bear our cross, no matter how angry it makes us feel on the inside.

Catholics must always listen to the church elders and obey every law the church lays down; they are Christians first and citizens second. We may sound booted to you, but we will be comforted when we see the Popes in heaven and the Planned Parenthood thugs burning in hell for all eternity. 

 Not all Popes will go to heaven and not all Planned Parenthood supporters will burn in hell. Also, I can't imagine being comforted at the thought of someone going to hell.

 The wicked will be punished: that is a universal statement professed by all religions, and I'm sorry you cannot understand that. 

I can't keep track of what you actually believe anymore.

I must obey whatever the church says, and regard all outsiders who do not agree as always wrong. I want to believe that the Church's teachings on sex are wrong, but I can't. So I must conform to their logic, so that abortion can be stopped and I don't have to go to church angry every week because the priest always works in abortion to every homily, how bad the "world" is, and how they feel persecuted by that world. And then I encounter countless websites saying that the Humane Vitae is vindicated and how bad the pill is, and how the hell anyone could be pro-choice. Just type in Humane Vitae in google or youtube to know what I mean.

generalfrevious said:

RicOlie_2 said:

generalfrevious said:

TV's Frink said:

generalfrevious said:

No matter, oral contraception still kills embryos; the pill is worse than meth, therefore anyone who takes it might as well be committing an abortion anyways. Anyone who disagrees with this is a sociopath that has been brainwashed by the anti-christian, pro-abortion, second(or third)-wave feminist agenda.

 Please seek psychiatric help.  Seriously, you need it, no insult intended.

 That's not me. That's the Roman Catholic church speaking; I cannot disagree with them on any issue, or I will be damned.

If that is honestly your view, then you might need to do some research. You will not go to hell just for disagreeing on something. Not everything the Church teaches is infallible, so feel free to disagree on things that don't have to do with morals and suchlike.

This isn't the debate on wether the earth or the sun is in the center of the solar system or not; this is on issues of sex, the first sin man committed against God.

Hold on...can you point me to the bit in the Bible/other text where it says that sex was the first sin? Also, can you find something with a Nihil Obstat on it that says sex is wrong?

They are brainwashing our women in taking a horrendous drug that inevitably lead to the trauma of murdering your own child. There is no grey area, reproductive rights are inherently misogynistic.

As far as I am aware, the pill prevents a pregnancy as do other contraceptives. They're still wrong, but they aren't as bad as abortion. There are indeed grey areas, and even the Church teaches this. For instance, if a pregnant mother's life is in danger, she can abort her pregnancy.

It's shocking that all Catholics who use contraception or disagree with the Humanae Vitae are so contemptuous of God's natural law and the call to purity and chastity, and turn a blind eye to one of the greatest genocides in recorded history. You have no idea how horrible the social impact of the contraceptive oral pill really is to society: families were more stable and loving, women had more dignity than they have now, divorce rates were almost nonexistent, sexually transmitted infections were low, less children were born out of wedlock, and people were less perverted than they are today. The governments of Western Nations are cracking down on the Roman Catholic church by forcing them to murder innocent human beings via contraception and abortions.

On one hand you seem to wholeheartedly agree with the Church's teachings; on the other, you seem to feel trapped by it and want to do away with many of them. I don't get it.

That's the devil talking. But we must always bear our cross, no matter how angry it makes us feel on the inside.

That's the Church's teaching, but if you think Catholicism is the worst religion in the world, then you must think there is something seriously wrong with it and therefore you must not believe it is true. If you're saying it's the devil that's making you type that stuff, then are you implying you're possessed? (Not the OT.com member. ;))

You are giving contradictory thoughts and it is kind of confusing. You sound confused yourself, no offense.

Catholics must always listen to the church elders and obey every law the church lays down; they are Christians first and citizens second. We may sound booted to you, but we will be comforted when we see the Popes in heaven and the Planned Parenthood thugs burning in hell for all eternity. 

 Not all Popes will go to heaven and not all Planned Parenthood supporters will burn in hell. Also, I can't imagine being comforted at the thought of someone going to hell.

 The wicked will be punished: that is a universal statement professed by all religions, and I'm sorry you cannot understand that. 

 The wicked may be punished, but how wicked do they have to be? We don't really know. Also, Catholics believe in Purgatory in which everyone who didn't become a saint on earth but wasn't bad enough to go to hell goes through a period of suffering in order to become saints. Only saints get into heaven, but Purgatory is there so that people can become saints. Also, I can't understand being comforted by the thought of someone being in hell. I just can't imagine how anyone could be happy about someone's suffering.

generalfrevious said:

I must obey whatever the church says, and regard all outsiders who do not agree as always wrong.

Except that the Church doesn't teach that people who disagree with the Church are always wrong. In fact, atheists can get to heaven if they are genuinely seeking the truth. So can Muslims and Hindus and agnostics and Protestants, etc.

I want to believe that the Church's teachings on sex are wrong, but I can't.

You seem convinced that it is and of the reasons for it. You also seem to have an incorrect understanding of the Church's position on sex. Please explain why you want to believe the teachings are wrong when you see the reasons for the teachings. And PLEASE ask questions because you don't seem to get the Church's position on a lot of things. I don't know if you're pastor is in error or what, but saying things like "sex is evil" or "sex was the first sin committed against God" is going against Church teachings on the matter.

So I must conform to their logic, so that abortion can be stopped and I don't have to go to church angry every week because the priest always works in abortion to every homily,

I am beginning to suspect that you have an odd priest. Pope Francis himself said that we need to stop focusing so much on issues like abortion and homosexual marriage and start loving people.

how bad the "world" is, and how they feel persecuted by that world. And then I encounter countless websites saying that the Humane Vitae is vindicated and how bad the pill is, and how the hell anyone could be pro-choice. Just type in Humane Vitae in google or youtube to know what I mean.

 Not all websites are trustworthy just because they're Catholic. There are sites that are incredibly medieval minded and think that women wearing pants is wrong, as well as dancing (ballroom dancing dancing). Obviously, they are still in the 1500s or something, because the Church has no such stance against women wearing pants. The only reason it was wrong back then is because men were used to seeing women in dresses and the more they saw of women's bodies the more sexually aroused they were. So when they could actually see the outline of women's legs their imaginations started filling in the blanks. Now our culture has become quite desensitized to that kind of thing and it isn't as arousing as it once was to see a woman wearing shorts and a T-shirt. A century ago that would have been scandalous. In some native tribes the only article of clothing that both men and women wear is a loin cloth. Men in those tribes don't go bananas because they see women's breasts because they don't associate it with sex like we do. It's a cultural thing. OK, I spent too long making my point, but you can see that the sites may be in error or not entirely in agreement with Church teachings. Also, what was applicable then may not be entirely applicable now. Morals and values are constant, but you can see the way in which the way they are manifested might change depending on how culturally acceptable something is (in the way I described above. Don't think I'm in agreement with something like abortion or gay marriage just because it's culturally acceptable).

EDIT: Sorry for my largely off-topic rant. I was just trying to make a point about the way the Church views virtues and morals over time might change, and in what way. I was also trying to say that Catholic site doesn't equal infallible site.

generalfrevious said:

I must obey whatever the church says, and regard all outsiders who do not agree as always wrong.

This sounds like something a person who isn't a [insert follower of specific religion here] would say to make [insert specific religion here] sound stupid.

I saw my most recent sub-person bunch of cells today for the first time!  It was neat to see this genetically unique, but altogether unimportant (yet) lifeform.  I watched its tiny little appendages moving against my wife's full bladder, its heart beating, stimulated by its own pacemaker cells, propelling minuscule amounts of blood through its 9 week-old bloodstream.  This non-viable organism will no doubt further alter my wife's body, making her less likely to ever pose for the cover of Cosmopolitan.  My limited financial resources will certainly be further strained.  There will be one more mouth in this world to consume its finite resources.

It was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen...except for my other children and my not-as-skinny-as-she-used-to-be, stretch-mark-covered wife :)

:-/

Since I don't understand your situation more fully, Frink, I truly would appreciate an explanation to ensure I don't accidentally misstep in my words or feelings.  I'm not asking in judgment.  However, it would help me be more fair in future statements.

It's not just my situation - I believe there are.others where abortion is justified.

It also seems unnecessary to post happy non-abortion news here.  A bit of a poke in the eye, actually.

darth_ender said:

I saw my most recent sub-person bunch of cells today for the first time!  It was neat to see this genetically unique, but altogether unimportant (yet) lifeform.  I watched its tiny little appendages moving against my wife's full bladder, its heart beating, stimulated by its own pacemaker cells, propelling minuscule amounts of blood through its 9 week-old bloodstream.  This non-viable organism will no doubt further alter my wife's body, making her less likely to ever pose for the cover of Cosmopolitan.  My limited financial resources will certainly be further strained.  There will be one more mouth in this world to consume its finite resources.

It was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen...except for my other children and my not-as-skinny-as-she-used-to-be, stretch-mark-covered wife :)

 Congratulations! :) How many do you have now?

WRONG THREAD

TV's Frink said:

It's not just my situation - I believe there are.others where abortion is justified.

It also seems unnecessary to post happy non-abortion news here.  A bit of a poke in the eye, actually.

 I've said many times that I believe there are situations where it is justified.  However, since you have used your situation on more than one occasion to make a point, I am interested in knowing more about it.  If you don't feel like sharing it, I understand.

And I share the news here because, as your very sad personal anecdote has affirmed to you the right to be pro-choice, mine has simply reaffirmed to me the need to be pro-life.  I cannot look at that ultrasound and believe all those things that I just typed (i.e. "bunch of cells").  It is so precious to me, and I felt the need to share that news in a way that is meaningful to me.  I don't see how anyone can look at that child and think anything less of it.

If personal anecdotes are able to justify abortions, I don't see why I can't share anecdotes to justify life!

RicOlie_2 said:

darth_ender said:

I saw my most recent sub-person bunch of cells today for the first time!  It was neat to see this genetically unique, but altogether unimportant (yet) lifeform.  I watched its tiny little appendages moving against my wife's full bladder, its heart beating, stimulated by its own pacemaker cells, propelling minuscule amounts of blood through its 9 week-old bloodstream.  This non-viable organism will no doubt further alter my wife's body, making her less likely to ever pose for the cover of Cosmopolitan.  My limited financial resources will certainly be further strained.  There will be one more mouth in this world to consume its finite resources.

It was the most beautiful thing I've ever seen...except for my other children and my not-as-skinny-as-she-used-to-be, stretch-mark-covered wife :)

 Congratulations! :) How many do you have now?

 It's my thread, and I say this is okay to ask here.  I have three born and one unborn.  Thanks for asking :)

TV's Frink said:

It's not just my situation - I believe there are.others where abortion is justified.

It also seems unnecessary to post happy non-abortion news here.  A bit of a poke in the eye, actually.

 it didn't seem a poke in the eye to me. 

Frink, I am very sure if you told Ender you story, he would be nothing but respectful and understanding about it.   I am sure if you PMed him and told him your story and told him not to tell anyone, that he could be trusted not to tell anyone.

I already told my story.  Bingo told another.

But whatever.

I think he knows the story, he just wants to hear more of it, provided you are willing to give that information.

All I can seem to recall is references I could piece together, not the actual story.  I understand that he and his wife chose to have an abortion.  I believe in context, the child had some health issue, the specifics of which I'm not sure.  I don't know if the child was going to die shortly after birth or if it would simply have a disability.  I don't know how late in the pregnancy the abortion took place.  I don't know how hard Frink and his wife labored over the decision, though it appears to me that it was agonizing for them both.

I want to be clear on my views, which match those of my church  Abortion is wrong in all circumstances except: 1) health of the mother is in jeopardy; 2) forcible rape/incest; 3) the child will almost certainly die shortly after birth.  It sounds to me like Frink's case might match the latter, though I'm not certain.  If that is the case, he will never again need to make reference to how I think less of him when I make generalized statements, because he will know that there is no reservation in my heart for his situation.  If the child would have problems but might have lived, I will still disagree with his decision, but will understand why he did what he did and have no less respect for him.  In either case, I harbor no judgment.

In the case of, "Gosh, I only wanted one kid and it looks like we're pregnant again, honey," I am far more disappointed.  In the case of, "Rats!  I just wanted to have sex without the natural consequences that follow, and now I don't want to take responsibility for my having fun," I am also displeased with this.  But I don't consider such people murderers per se, as I don't feel they know better in general.  Those that know better (i.e. other Christians, Mormons especially) disappoint me most of all.  Frink falls into none of these categories, so he need not feel judged.

 Frink has linked to the post telling his story a few times so I'm not quite sure why you only remember references, etc., but maybe you haven't followed the link in a while. Anyhow, it's there with about as much detail as Frink has ever given as of yet.

TV's Frink said:

Either way, this (and the one before it) is not the norm.  If he is guilty, he should be locked up for a very long time.  Incidentally, I have told my story before, but ours was done in a completely professional and humane manner (at a regular hospital, by the way).  This was over seven years ago now, but thanks to changes in the law, a regular hospital can no longer accommodate needy people like us.

TV's Frink said:

I already told my story.  Bingo told another.

But whatever.

 I don't know of what story Bingo told.  I have not read this thread for awhile so if Bingo posted a story here, I missed it.   

Having scanned through the last few pages, I found this link:

http://theshizz.org/forum/index.php/topic/36039-abortion/page-3#entry1055871

I believe I had read this, but I'd forgotten the specifics.  Such is enough for me, and no further details need be shared.  And I as mentioned only minutes ago, Frink's situation does not make me "want to throw up" or anything of that sort.  I definitely understand his situation.

I simply wanted to share my happy news here, and again share why such news fills me with a love of all life.  My personal anecdotes are just as good as anyone else's.  I love my unborn child and hope I never have to make a decision as difficult as yours, TV's.

...Further scanning has led me to Bingo's story.  Sadly, when I first posted I had misunderstood, then realized my mistake and committed to give a better response, and ultimately forgot about it.  In part, my negligence with both of these stories came from exasperation with arguing so much about the topic, as I often found such arguments exhausting and painful.  Therefore most of the time I would only glance at this thread rather than really read it for the past year.  Now I look back with better understanding, and a slightly more firm opinion of the acceptability of abortion in the case of such defects.  Again, I hope I am never so tortured.  I really am sorry for you, Frink, and for your sister, Bingo. 

Gee whiz guys, I quoted Frink's link to his story in my last post in this thread! :P