The thread where we make enemies out of friends, aka the abortion debate thread — Page 22

NeverarGreat said:

generalfrevious said:

We live in an age of extremes. You cannot have a reasonable position on any issue anymore. I don't know how to look for the good in things; can anyone help me?

...

If you want to start with a small change to improve your outlook, consider perhaps changing the broken record in your signature. It's hard to look at something like that every day and not get discouraged. I'd suggest Beethoven's Symphony #9.

;)

 (For those of you who didn't get that, he's referring to the bit of Symphony 9 commonly known as "Ode to Joy")

darth_ender said:

TV's Frink said:

generalfrevious said:

How can any human being murder another human being that can survive outside the mother? It makes me want to throw up.

darth_ender said:

I agree with your last two sentences very much.

I'm sorry I make you guys want to throw up.

 I think if you pay attention to all my posts, including my previous post in this topic, you will see that I am open to exceptions.  You know my stance and I really am sorry for the decision you had to make, but I don't feel you need to continually bring it up for sympathy whenever I share my general opinion.  Clearly I am referring to people who do so for any reason other than genuine need.

On the other hand, there are many other ways you make me want to throw up ;)

I'm pretty sure other people would be more diplomatic but me being me I think you are being a bit of a cunt here, hopefully not deliberately but I feel it needs to be said.

The idea that a bunch of barely formed cells is a human being with a soul (whatever that is) is a huge leap in the dark and you may take some people with you.

But the main course of the argument is that by late term the bunch of cells is practically a baby with a nervous system and while some of us are happy to shoot nails into the heads of pigs with arguably as much if not more awareness in the name of bacon for breakfast, infanticide is a justifiable and pretty much universal no-no.

If you read this thread from cover to cover you find a lot of people using the earlier proposition to justify insensitive over-arching comments advocating a  description of abortion as infanticide. Usually blaming women for the situation because guys are too busy getting their end away to make sure they lady has 1000% control over her body chemistry.

Frink's situation was horrible, the same with my sister.

Reminding people that abortion isn't just *filthy whores pulling the chain on the unholy toilet basin of their private parts is important. It puts the conversation back into balance.

There is a general assumption made by people, mostly of a religious bent that what they say be it sensible or utterly evil and based on nonsense is beyond question or debate.

It isn't and for the originator of the thread to label the testimony of someone who has had to make the sort of decisions covered by the thread title as continually brought up for sympathy, is just rotten.

You should be ashamed.

Yes, thanks for not reading anything thoroughly.  I understand that what I said may have been offensive.  But no matter what I say, it seems like TV's Frink brings up his personal experience.  I have said so many times that I don't intend to judge him, that I don't fully understand his case.  I have said many times that there are justifiable exceptions, that perhaps his is such a case, that my comments are intended as my rules in general and not specific to anyone or any specific instance.  And even though the thought of needlessly terminating a late term child's life (though I do feel that early term is not acceptable, the conversation was specifically about late term abortions as they "can survive ouside the mother," and are therefore not just "a bunch of cells") does indeed make me want to throw up, that does not mean TV's Frink, whether justifiable in his actions or not (and for the record, from what I understand of his situation, I feel that his actions were jusfifiable) makes me want to throw up.  I think I've stated my position so clearly so many times, and I tried to say it humorously, but I feel like my position is frequently attacked from Frink's personal angle.  Too often the substance of my arguments are not addressed.  I don't like that.  I don't like anecdotes trumping what I'm really saying.  Clearly you have not read this thread "cover to cover," as you would see that my personal views are not so condescending as you portray, so please stop with your caricatures.

If you don't have the memory to know, or the stamina to refresh yourself on my views, then let me reaquaint you with the facts: I don't have a problem with Frink.  I don't judge anyone who has had an abortion, unless they were doing something they knew to be wrong.  I feel it is terribly wrong, but I also feel it is terribly misunderstood.  I feel that it is only rarely appropriate, but indeed appropriate at times.  I feel that no matter how small the child, her or she is more than just a bunch of cells.  I feel that personal anecdotes are useful, but when overused or not applicable, do not help to further the discussion.  I feel that Frink's use here missed the mark.

I agree with much of what you said, including the treatment of animals, the inappropriateness of simply blaming women (as always, things are more complicated than that), etc.  But I am against abortion, I believe wholeheartedly that it is wrong is most cases, and I feel tired that I have to repeat myself so often, yet folks are determined to argue against a strawman instead of my genuine views.

I do want to add to this thread an apology to TV's Frink.  It's not that I think the main point I was making was incorrect, but rather my phrasing.  Sympathy was the wrong word to use.  I should say that I feel his personal story, while valuable in many cases, can be overused or incorrectly used.  I don't like my arguments deflated with an incorrect application such an anecdote.  But there are many cases where such anecdotes are valuable and conducive to discussion.  I am sorry for the difficult situation he faced with such long-lasting effects.  I am sorry for being/sounding insensitive about it.  It clearly left a deep scar.  I do ask, however, that when you use it, you don't use it to make me sound like a jerk, especially when I'm giving a general rule, and you know that I believe in exceptions.  Hopefully we can remain friends in spite of our vastly different POVs on this topic, and particularly for when I stumble over my words.

As for Bingowings, I'm a little less inclined to apologize.  I really feel you have mischaracterized me, and to be so harsh in your judgment of me when you should be aware of my personal views and my efforts to be congenial even in disagreement is awfully frustrating.  I think it was obvious that I did not intend to be mean, and I have said before that I don't judge him for his situation.  I feel that many of your points are often made with less than respect.  Forgive me for using the wrong word now and then.

No apology necessary :-)

I'm glad.  Thanks for understanding :)

What about Pope Paul VI's four predictions anyone? It may not be really abortion related, but they are extremely airtight arguments that no one can disagree with (and I never knew how evil the pill really was):

Infidelity and moral decline

Lost respect for women

Abuse of power

Unlimited dominion

The pill is not evil.

Yes it is. Contraception is a prison. Eventually it will fail, and the pregnant woman will have no choice but to abort her child. Not to mention all the horrible medical side effects associated with its use. As Catholics, this issue separates the sheep from the goats. To use any form of contraception other than NFP is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, a sin that Jesus says can never be forgiven.

Before people jump all over you, gf, I would like to correct you on one point. Contraception is not a sin against the Spirit. A sin against the Spirit is attributing works of the Spirit to Satan. Use of contraception can certainly be forgiven.

generalfrevious said:

Yes it is. Contraception is a prison. Eventually it will fail, and the pregnant woman will have no choice but to abort her child. Not to mention all the horrible medical side effects associated with its use. As Catholics, this issue separates the sheep from the goats. To use any form of contraception other than NFP is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, a sin that Jesus says can never be forgiven.

 Contraception has not failed millions of people, myself included.  Access to contraception reduces unwanted pregnancies and abortions.  And it causes little to no health issues, in fact can have certain benefits.

I think you might need to do more research, rather than just accepting the Church's view as fact.

You must not be catholic then. The word of God can not be compromised. We live in such a horrible society, where the culture of death reigns supreme, where there are more unborn killed every year than the last (the "official" statistics always lie), more than were murdered in both world wars combined. It is our duty to stop the slaughter, no matter how unpopular it is. The words of God are always hard to swallow. If they weren't, they would be false teachings.

I haven't heard anything about health issues for most of them. There is more to the Church's teaching than that.

No. We must always protect the voiceless or we go to hell. The unborn ARE the voiceless today. Every fetus is marked for death according to modern western abortion laws. Reproductive rights can never be rights if it involves the death of millions of innocent human beings.

I partly agree with that, but what I meant was that contraception itself doesn't create health issues. I think it's the sex-saturated culture of ours that has led to most abortions. We live in a world where sex is viewed as a necessary aspect of life and life has little value if it belongs to someone who is suffering or is too small and stupid to care whether or not it is taken from them.

Most people would disagree, and rather strongly, about what I just wrote, but I think it is at the base of many (but not necessarily most) problems today.

Sex is evil. That is the first sin committed by man against God. Every teenage that has sexual urges is going through original sin.

That goes against Catholic teaching, generalfrevious. Sex is good, but it is abused. If sex was evil, and the first generation of human beings agreed with that and didn't have sex, the human species would be extinct and we wouldn't be here. Sexual urges are normal and are not bad themselves, rather, it is what is done with them that is good or bad.

generalfrevious said:

Sex is evil.

 Only during a screening of a Stanley Kubrick movie...and then only mildly so.

Ok, sex is mostly evil, and should be restricted into the smallest possible boundaries.

No matter, oral contraception still kills embryos; the pill is worse than meth, therefore anyone who takes it might as well be committing an abortion anyways. Anyone who disagrees with this is a sociopath that has been brainwashed by the anti-christian, pro-abortion, second(or third)-wave feminist agenda.

Worse than meth...? Is it addictive? Does it destroy your body? How is it worse than meth? It isn't good, but worse, or even close to as bad as meth seems a bit overboard.

generalfrevious said:

No matter, oral contraception still kills embryos; the pill is worse than meth, therefore anyone who takes it might as well be committing an abortion anyways. Anyone who disagrees with this is a sociopath that has been brainwashed by the anti-christian, pro-abortion, second(or third)-wave feminist agenda.

 Please seek psychiatric help.  Seriously, you need it, no insult intended.

TV's Frink said:

generalfrevious said:

No matter, oral contraception still kills embryos; the pill is worse than meth, therefore anyone who takes it might as well be committing an abortion anyways. Anyone who disagrees with this is a sociopath that has been brainwashed by the anti-christian, pro-abortion, second(or third)-wave feminist agenda.

 Please seek psychiatric help.  Seriously, you need it, no insult intended.

 That's not me. That's the Roman Catholic church speaking; I cannot disagree with them on any issue, or I will be damned. It's shocking that all Catholics who use contraception or disagree with the Humanae Vitae are so contemptuous of God's natural law and the call to purity and chastity, and turn a blind eye to one of the greatest genocides in recorded history. You have no idea how horrible the social impact of the contraceptive oral pill really is to society: families were more stable and loving, women had more dignity than they have now, divorce rates were almost nonexistent, sexually transmitted infections were low, less children were born out of wedlock, and people were less perverted than they are today. The governments of Western Nations are cracking down on the Roman Catholic church by forcing them to murder innocent human beings via contraception and abortions. Catholics must always listen to the church elders and obey every law the church lays down; they are Christians first and citizens second. We may sound booted to you, but we will be comforted when we see the Popes in heaven and the Planned Parenthood thugs burning in hell for all eternity. 

From the moment if conception, a person is a living thing.