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Haha, no worries. :)
Haha, no worries. :)
RicOlie_2 said:
Note that I added the gold general, so when you make a mock-up, make sure you put it in there. :) If you agree with having it in there, what should it promote to?
Assuming we're starting over, I'll make the first move of SC-7.
EDIT: Pardon me, I'm starting on the wrong side of the board! SC-22 is what I meant.
Perhaps the Gold General could promote to a lion-type piece, only weaker. I really like the idea of the lion...I can't finish right now. Too much going on, but hang in there and I will explain later.
We could invent a new piece: the lynx.
It would be able to move two squares forward or backwards, and could capture twice. It would be weaker than the lion in that it wouldn't be able to switch direction, but it would still be able to jump over other pieces.
What do you think? :)
I look forward to hearing your replies later on. Meanwhile, I've gotta go for a few hours.
Actually, the piece I thought of was very similar to your lynx idea. I was still going to call it a lion, but a true adaptation, according the rules I set up, would allow it to move up to four spaces. I was going to set a limit at two, but still allow a change of direction, the igui attack, and perhaps the turn passing (though I'm not sure about that last one). The reason I suggest this as the opposite face for the gold is because I wanted all my pieces to have a similar piece on the opposite side. The lower value would be more forward oriented, but would move in a certain way or up to a certain number of squares, i.e. the pawn one, the iron general two, the knight three, the goose four. On the opposite side would be the same move or maximum number of squares in the forward direction, plus increased abilities, including more retreating options. A lion like this would indeed move two forward, just like the gold, but have improved abilities and retreat. That is my reasoning. I am still unsure about your thoughts as to not including it, and I'm honestly still interested in how it would behave with full abilities. But we can try that later. If you're open to several games, we can experiment with several rule sets. Let's use what we have for now and go from there.
I'll make a move soon. I have to adjust the board and take care of my sick wife.
I'm OK with the lion being able to change direction and whatnot, as long as it can't move more than two squares. I just realized that changing direction would really be the same as the igui move in this game anyway, so it wouldn't allow for two captures. I was just worried that a piece as powerful as a lion would be a bit too destructive on a board this size. It might not be so bad in reality though, since it is probably a lot easier to have all your pieces covered with only one row to worry about. Anyway, we'll see. By "use what we have for now" you mean with the lion being able to move as you suggested, right?
Go ahead and take your time. I'm in no hurry. :)
I will say that changing direction might allow for two captures, since it depends on what interpretation of two squares we are considering. If the second square is looked at as two squares orthogonal, then that is the whole move. But if we think of it like a diagonal (as it is with the bishop, for instance), then it could lead to a change in direction and two captures (i.e. capture two squares forward, then back one and capture again). This probably misses the point too much of the lion and we should skip it this time around. I would like to try a more powerful lion next game and see how it goes.
So considering our rules are set for now, I move L-8
I see what you mean. N-18
Well, I'm unhappy with this already. First, I had my board set up incorrectly, but now that I've fixed it, I don't see how you could have moved your Silver Cannon to 22. I am not blaming you, but as we are working from our own separate Excel creations, we may have things different enough to cause such an miscommunication.
But far more grievous, I'm still very unhappy with the starting position, and I really will need to think of something to make it more workable. Again, I don't blame you, and I in fact very much appreciate your reworked positioning, but I think we will need to toy further with the positions to make this a workable game. Whatever position we want to try, I suggest one of us create the spreadsheet, then send it to the other. Give me a few minutes to look it over.
Just a minute of looking helped me come up with something else. Right now I'm just referring to the first four pieces that get in each others' ways so often:
P
N
S
Gs
So I move the knight forward, replace the iron general with a silver general (with a gold general on the reverse) and place that piece third, and have the goose in back. This allows the pawn, knight, or goose the first move. Once the pawn or knight has moved, the silver may move. One may move the pawn and knight, or silver and knight, without having to move any other pieces forward. See, this was part of the problem: once you moved one of your pieces forward, you had to move it again just to move another piece, and thus place your first piece in danger. This way two pieces may move. The silver and goose also have an option for retreat. So a player, even with such weak starting pieces, can still rearrange the pieces a bit as part of his opening moves. What do you think?
I should make sure that we are on the same page here: the gold moves just like the silver, only it steps one backwards instead of jumping 2 backwards.
darth_ender said:
Well, I'm unhappy with this already. First, I had my board set up incorrectly, but now that I've fixed it, I don't see how you could have moved your Silver Cannon to 22. I am not blaming you, but as we are working from our own separate Excel creations, we may have things different enough to cause such an miscommunication.
I made a mistake that I forgot to point out. I was missing a space and meant 23, not 22.
Well, I haven't messed up that setup on my board if you want to continue playing, but I'd almost rather skip the mess with the first four pieces. I guess if you want to take back your last move, we could go from there with the alternate arrangement of those pieces.
JEDIT: Of course then we'd have two gold generals. I wish I'd played this with someone when I first came up with these rules, but I was all by my lonesome without any shogi partner :'( *sniff*
I honestly think we will need to start over. We haven't gotten too far, and I may want to adjust the other pieces for now as well. And I do need to work tomorrow. What I will do is spend a few more minutes seeing if I like a different setup (probably similar to what you have already done). I will send you my Excel spreadsheet (probably in the morning), either to play with or to rearrange your own. Sorry about the bad news and lack of progress.
darth_ender said:
Just a minute of looking helped me come up with something else. Right now I'm just referring to the first four pieces that get in each others' ways so often:
P
N
S
GsSo I move the knight forward, replace the iron general with a silver general (with a gold general on the reverse) and place that piece third, and have the goose in back. This allows the pawn, knight, or goose the first move. Once the pawn or knight has moved, the silver may move. One may move the pawn and knight, or silver and knight, without having to move any other pieces forward. See, this was part of the problem: once you moved one of your pieces forward, you had to move it again just to move another piece, and thus place your first piece in danger. This way two pieces may move. The silver and goose also have an option for retreat. So a player, even with such weak starting pieces, can still rearrange the pieces a bit as part of his opening moves. What do you think?
I think that sounds good. I'll adapt my mock-up accordingly. There will still be a gold general/lion on the board though, correct?
Instead of replacing each mock-up, I'm adding new ones on my spreadsheet. That way, I'll be able to see the evolution of the game and also go back to a version we thought worked better without having to recreate it.
I should make sure that we are on the same page here: the gold moves just like the silver, only it steps one backwards instead of jumping 2 backwards.
That is what I understood. With those moves, perhaps the gold general ought to promote to a silver general since the silver general can retreat more quickly. I say we have a gold general/silver general close to the front and a silver general/lion in the back.
darth_ender said:
Well, I haven't messed up that setup on my board if you want to continue playing, but I'd almost rather skip the mess with the first four pieces. I guess if you want to take back your last move, we could go from there with the alternate arrangement of those pieces.
I think we should spend some more time looking at the game and then start over.
JEDIT: Of course then we'd have two gold generals. I wish I'd played this with someone when I first came up with these rules, but I was all by my lonesome without any shogi partner :'( *sniff*
See my above post for my solution, of course.
I honestly think we will need to start over. We haven't gotten too far, and I may want to adjust the other pieces for now as well. And I do need to work tomorrow. What I will do is spend a few more minutes seeing if I like a different setup (probably similar to what you have already done). I will send you my Excel spreadsheet (probably in the morning), either to play with or to rearrange your own. Sorry about the bad news and lack of progress.
Can attachments be sent via PMs, or do we need each other's emails?
I have three variations of the board mocked up, because as I said above, I'm not replacing them as I go, which will be useful in the future, I think. I'm OK with ironing out the flaws, so don't apologize. The longer we spend fixing it up, the more fun it will be to play.
Thanks for your patience. No, we can't send files via PMs. I will send you a link for sharing. If you ever want, you can give me your email address. But since I know you might not be comfortable with that, we can just go this route for now. I'm glad you're saving the different versions. I think that is wise. Unfortunately I did not do the same. I will send what I have, and you can simply copy it to yours.
I did remove the duplicate gold/lion for now. I think you are right about the gold and silver differences, with the advantage of the silver being able to retreat more quickly. Believe it or not, I originally had the iron/silver piece as a silver/gold, but as the silver was supposed to be weaker in regular shogi, yet such was not so clear in this version, and since I was trying to make the weaker face more forward oriented, I changed it to iron/silver. Perhaps you are right....
No, I really want to keep the silver's retreat options early in the new setup. I'm not sure if one is truly more valuable than the other, or if they are simply more valuable in different circumstances.
Still thinking I should leave the lion out for now, and maybe later see about adding it in. The new set up still requires 30 cells. I slightly adjusted the middle and rear pieces. Everything is given some movement, and depending on what strategy a person is going for, slight repositioning could allow pieces in back to move to the fore more easily. But it depends on which pieces you really want to get out, as different repositioning would be more helpful to other pieces.
Anyway, those are my thoughts. PM coming your way soon.
I think it works pretty well. We're playing with the gold general being the demoted value and the silver general being the promoted value, correct? I just want to make sure the gold general was intentional since you have the gold general being the promoted value in your notes on the right.
I'm fine with leaving the lion out of it for now. If we want to add it, or another piece, back in, we can put it on the square in front of the ramshead soldier since the RS jumps over that square anyway.
Let's test it, shall we?
I changed the notes and piece in place after reading your post, then changed the placement back but didn't change the notes. Regardless of the right, I really feel it would be best to start with the silver in place. Yes, let's give it a go. You can go first. I may not get to move for a bit, but I'll try to make a couple other moves today.
Sounds good.
SC-24
Gs-13
P-18
N-14
S-19
I see a possible flaw with the spacing thing. If a person were to capture a piece that landed on every second square, they could checkmate their opponent by dropping it right in from of the ramshead soldier. The RS wouldn't be able to take the piece, since it would have to jump over it, and the king would be trapped. Having a piece in front of the RS would probably help that, so I think we should put a silver general or something in that spot in order to prevent a cheap checkmate like that. Maybe you think that would be OK though. Thoughts?
Three pieces could make that checkmate move (with both their promoted and unpromoted values):
Ramshead Soldier/Bishop
Silver Cannon/Gold Cannon
Silver General/Gold General
Worth considering. However, the king can capture anyone who is too close. The main pieces that could be threatening would be the cannon (gold or silver) and the ramshead soldier/bishop on the opposite color. I'm pretty busy, so give me some time to think on it, and I'll get back to you.