RicOlie_2 said:
RicOlie_2 said:
A final note: If his prayers worked, how come they didn't for the other hundred thousand people that also died while praying for salvation on that day? It comes down to arrogance I guess (Sorry if this sounds harsh). That he'd believe that out of all the other much more deserving, blameless (He wasn't blameless the incident was his own stupid fault) and deeply good people that had their prayers ignored, he alone was chosen by God as being special among all the peoples of man.
The incident may have been partly his fault, though it seems like an accident to me. Remember, if God and heaven are real, then it is the soul that matters. If people pray for salvation, they get that when they go to heaven. I'm guessing you just used the wrong word, but I'm not sure what you meant. As I wrote, God allows suffering for purification. God doesn't usually help people because they are deserving. He also doesn't answer prayers that aren't beneficial to a person's salvation.
OED definition of the word 'salvation'...
1: Preservation or deliverance from harm, ruin, or loss:
"They try to sell it to us as economic salvation"
1.1: (one's salvation) a source or means of being saved from harm, ruin, or loss:
"His only salvation was to outfly the enemy"
2: Theology - deliverance from sin and its consequences, believed by Christians to be brought about by faith in Christ: the Christian gospel of salvation for all mankind.Apologies, it was just an odd usage of the word. Most people would have said it differently when using it to refer to the first definition. I just misunderstood, that's all.
^ The first is what it means, the second is what you believe it to mean. You keep suggesting I and others have made silly "mistakes" in our posts which comes across as quite patronising (Especially when you are infact incorrect yourself), I'm sure it is not your intent to do so. I let it go the first few times but thought it time to mention that.
You may not realize it, but you have come across as being condescending and patronizing a few times. You have also been wrong about some things regarding religion. I don't mean that to sound/look condescending, but please realize that both of us are doing the same things.
Apologies if I come of like that, it's not my intent either. I tend to pepper my arguments with a little humour, even light sarcasm but it is meant in jest (Gives a debate some zest IMO). But there is a subtle difference between poking a bit of fun at the content of somebody's argument and suggesting that somebody lacks the basic language skills to make that argument.
RicOlie_2 said:
This is the kind of story that only confirms my belief in the non-existence of God.
I don't think it is evidence against God's existence. I think it is evidence, albeit weak, for the existence of God.
For me, it is a story of the kind of crazy stuff the human mind can dream up when it is pushed to the limits. If it was a story of a totally rational and sober man seeing Angels, it would be less easy to dismiss.
Possibly. Entirely sober people have described experiences like that, though many of them are still explainable. Another instance of a miracle (whether it was or not, I can't say for sure) is just a minor instance. When my grandmother was far younger, she broke her wrist and the bone was protruding. Her father took her to the hospital and the doctors looked at her wrist and noted the protruding bone. Her father touched her wrist (I can't remember this part with certainty) and told her it would be all right, or something like that. She says the pain went away at that point. When the doctors went to put the cast on her wrist, to their surprise the bone was no longer protruding and her wrist was healed. Her father had a sore wrist for six months after that. Now, I am just telling the story as I heard it. My grandmother tends to think critically and skeptically most of the time and is not a super spiritual type like someone who made that stuff up might be. She is quite honest and as far as I know, isn't prone to embellishing her stories. You can take it as you will, but I don't know if that's what really happened, or if something really happened there. There were some strange things about my grandmother's father, and he supposedly appeared to someone after his death and my great-grandmother heard his voice saying "I made it"--presumably to heaven. Cloven hoof-marks were also found on his body (he was supposedly tempted by demons during his lifetime). I don't know what to make of all that, but I figured it might be relevant information when determining the authenticity of the healing.
Thoughts? Explanations? Or do you think that isn't enough information? I personally don't think it's explainable with that information, but I don't think that means it can necessarily be taken at face value either. But make of it what you will.
Exactly, that story is less easy for me to dismiss or explain. I still don't believe it and am sure there must be a rational explanation somewhere in there if I had more information like Doctor's notes, pathologist's reports, a library of similar case notes, patient history, multiple witness testimonies, a degree in medicine etc etc.