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The thread where we make enemies out of friends, aka the abortion debate thread — Page 20

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TV's Frink said:

Incidentally, I have told my story before, but ours was done in a completely professional and humane manner (at a regular hospital, by the way).  This was over seven years ago now, but thanks to changes in the law, a regular hospital can no longer accommodate needy people like us.

 Being a staunch anti-abortion person, I don't even equate your experience with abortion.

I am totally against abortions that have no medical purpose and are simply for convenience of the irresponsible woman who failed to take appropriate logical measures in the first place.

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Unfortunately, the way many late-term abortion laws are being written, they do not allow for any distinction.

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 (Edited)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/attorneys-brain-dead-womans-fetus-abnormal-21630077

For those of you who use the "fetus feels pain" reasoning as at least part of your anti-abortion stance...what say you about this one?

"According to the medical records we have been provided, the fetus is distinctly abnormal," the attorneys said. "Even at this early stage, the lower extremities are deformed to the extent that the gender cannot be determined."

The attorneys said the fetus also has fluid building up inside the skull and possibly has a heart problem.

"Quite sadly, this information is not surprising due to the fact that the fetus, after being deprived of oxygen for an indeterminate length of time, is gestating within a dead and deteriorating body, as a horrified family looks on in absolute anguish, distress and sadness," the attorneys said.

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I am at work.  I am caring for a patient with very advanced dementia, who hardly eats or drinks in spite of a great deal coaxing, who is constantly confused and is clearly miserable, who is on pain medication.  She is now on hospice, but may live for another six months.  She provides nothing to society or humanity.  She merely is a drain on the limited resources at our disposal, and because of her intense needs, she is fact contributing to rising insurance prices and high Medicare taxes.  And I could never have her killed simply because she is an inconvenience.

I understand that such is a very controversial case, and is not so black and white to me as most cases that I argue.  But I think my point is understood.

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Nothing is too obvious for me.

Please explain.

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I of course mean that pain, defomity, the potential for a purposeless life, and being a drain on society are not all enough of a reason to choose to end someone's life.  And I of course believe that a fetus's life is just as valid as any other person's.

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Is the fetus feeling pain?  Might it be more humane to end that pain?  Is there even a chance that the fetus will survive long enough to be born alive, or to live for any measurable length of time?

This baby is in a different situation than our baby was, but in some ways it is very similar.  I guess you think my wife and I did not have enough of a reason to end our baby's life.  I find that terribly disappointing.

Side note: It is awful how much anguish the hospital is causing the woman's family.

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I don't know your situation well enough, nor do I know how much pain the baby in the news story is experiencing.  I do not judge you or anyone for not holding the same values as I do, as I do not believe that most people who commit abortions understand that it is wrong in the same way I do.  And finally, I already admitted that the situation is more complicated than most.  Restated, I'm not saying that this case is necessarily a no abortion case; indeed, it may be in the child's best interest.  I'm simply saying that just because of the possibility of these things, abortion should not be the default answer.  I really feel all human life is precious, even faulty life, and that the greatest of care should be used when deciding to end it.

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darth_ender said:

I do not believe that most people who commit abortions understand that it is wrong in the same way I do.

 :-/

There are two really offensive things in this sentence.  I should have known better than to start this up.

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Abortion should be considered first degree murder. The moment a mother is pregnant she surrenders all her rights to her baby. maybe the woman should have been more fucking careful.

Roe v wade opened up a whole can of worms on American society, and gave a horrendous verdict on all unborn children. You will burn in hell if you are pro-choice. It's not a matter if opinion, because in the cathechesism of the Catholic Church you cannot disagree with God's teachings. We must oppose abortion at all costs; it it the most important belief of Roman Catholicism.

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Hey there, you ignorant asshole, read this, and then say that again.

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Yeah, I don't agree with the Catholic Church about their position that much. To be honest I'm sick of my priest talking about the issue seemingly every week.

I apologize.

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 (Edited)

Well, you pretty much did a 180 in barely 15 minutes, so...

...I should give up trying to understand humans.

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TV's Frink said:

darth_ender said:

I do not believe that most people who commit abortions understand that it is wrong in the same way I do.

 :-/

There are two really offensive things in this sentence.  I should have known better than to start this up.

 Very true.  Let's see, it's offense to be convinced that I'm right.  That's number one.  Number two is that I state it so generally, I suspect, though you know my position from numerous previous posts.  Sometimes I feel like you can't see the forest for the trees when we get into these arguments.  You get hung up on little things and miss the real points of my arguments on too many occasions.  Anyway, I still like and respect you, I don't feel you did anything wrong per se (though if I did the same, believing as I do now, then perhaps I'd be less sure, though again I don't really know your circumstances), and I'm glad to see you back.

And I'm sure that in spite of my attempted careful phrasing, I probably offended you again with some particular phrasing.  Guess what?  I'll never believe I'm wrong, and I doubt you ever will.  I could be just as easily offended that you're so sure you're right that abortion is a woman's choice.  Instead, I respect your opinion, although I believe you are wrong.

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darth_ender said:

TV's Frink said:

darth_ender said:

I do not believe that most people who commit abortions understand that it is wrong in the same way I do.

 :-/

There are two really offensive things in this sentence.  I should have known better than to start this up.

 Very true.

 We agreed on something! :p

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darth_ender said:

Anyway, I still like and respect you...and I'm glad to see you back.

 :(

I had hoped you liked and respected yourself ;)  Also thought this might have been reciprocated.

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I agree with all that as well.  Should be obvious ;-)

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Had the fourth pro-life sermon in a row at church today. It makes me very upset.   Under the Catholic church, abortion is never permissible, and you cannot be Catholic and be pro-choice at the same time. If you don't act to end abortion in my country (US), you will go to hell. There are no gray areas in this debate for catholics; even contraception is a sin, so you can have sex only in the most narrow definition, and that to have children only. According to Christianity, society must conform to the church, and any disagreement with the church catechism is disagreeing with God. So I have to either to reject the religion I was born with, or blindly accept all dogma regardless of how I feel about.

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 (Edited)

Then I would be rejecting part of myself. It's a hard choice for me, because I personally don't like abortion, but it is such a minefield I don't really state an actual position. And I don't agree with atheism either or want to convert to another religion in all honesty.

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I get it.

I'm pretty sure there are "Catholics" who follow their own path - take the good stuff from the religion and reject the bad stuff.

YMMV