NeverarGreat said:
Anakin's turn should not have happened slowly as people have suggested. It should have been fast, for Luke's near-turn to the Dark Side was fast.
I don't think Luke's turn had long term effects. It was a blip- something that could have been the first step down a long road, or just that single step. I laid out my thoughts on this in another thread: here.
For Vader, this guy serves the Dark Side for 20+ years. He's pretty devoted to it. It's not something that happens when he gets mad, it's not something that happens when he loses control. It's his lifestyle. He's totally bought into it. He's trying to bring others into it. He's not accidentally straying into something- he's converted.
Converted to what, exactly? I think that has to be backed up with something other than a single moment that strays from that other thing he's previously converted to.
It is important that we as the audience not know precisely how Anakin falls only when Luke does, so that we can identify with Luke in the OT and share his fear of the unknown.
I think I will disagree with this here. The OT is the story of how Luke didn't turn to the Dark Side. If the PT is a story of how Anakin mysteriously turns to the Dark Side, but we are not told precisely how, I think you blew your chance to show something new.
The path to Anakin's fall should be subtle, so subtle for the audience watching the prequels that they would at first think it impossible for Anakin to have fallen. It's all in the framing of the story. In Episode 4, Luke displays grief and rage at the loss of his relatives and Obi-wan. We should sympathize with this, not be fearful lest Luke turn to the Dark Side.
I think you're spot on here, but you come away with a different conclusion than I do. I think it should be subtle, as you say, as with Anakin as it was with Luke. No one watching Luke thinks he will turn bad. Part of that is our hope and our trust in the storytellers that they wouldn't do that to us. Even when he uses the Dark Side to defeat Vader, we're still not terribly worried about him.
If Anakin's fall is subtle, but unclear as you suggest... then we will think that his fall is a requirement of the narrative rather than something driven by the character himself.
But if Anakin's fall is to a) be believable b) be tragic c) be a warning to all other would be heroes, then I think we need to understand it. And, as you said, if it starts with anger and sadness and the feelings of loss that any warm blooded human would experience, then we can start to understand it. I think most of RotJ's audience turns to the Dark Side with Luke in that scene. And it's only when the bombastic music dies down and the look on Luke's face tells us that he's not so sure he's done a good thing (the gloating Emperor telling him that he's lost doesn't hurt).
It's not when Luke goes into an unknown path that we fear for his immortal soul. But when we see him retread the steps his father took, though he thinks that this time it will be different, that we fear for him. And since we know that this story has already betrayed us- the hero has become the villain, then we fear for Luke.
So the dangers of the Dark side should not be revealed until Episode 5. The prequels show only the light side of the Force, a power without a downside.
My above comments should already show my disagreement here. However I wanted to say that Luke gets an education from Yoda (moreso than Ben) in the Light Side and avoiding the seductive ways of the Dark Side. As presented by Yoda, I think his argument seems ironclad. But it's pretty much the only side of the argument you hear in the OT. I think that Episode 2 of the PT should have shown a similar tutelage, but by a "Yoda-of-the-Dark-Side". Someone who can present their argument in similarly convincing terms. That person isn't going to say "Being evil is pretty great, eh?" But someone (Anakin and the Audience) that thought that the matter was pretty simple will find that it isn't quite so, and that maybe their decision hasn't totally been made yet.
A "Power Without a Downside" seems to be the opposite of what makes sense for a compelling story about Anakin's fall that could possibly cast narrative shadows onto Luke.
Anakin's powers are sorely needed after all, and there is no time to do things the "right" way.
Finally Anakin confronts Palpatine at the end of Episode 3, knowing full well that the new Emperor is entirely evil.
I think you're right about this again. Just like my other thoughts about Luke mentioned above, I see that Anakin would use the Dark Side to try to accomplish his original, Light Side mission. To win the War and bring Peace to the Galaxy. He thinks it's better to the right things, even if it means tapping into Dark powers... but we learn that this is ultimately a mistake.
The Emperor however plays on Anakin's fears, and in his domain of evil, he forces Anakin to fight his own worst enemy, as Luke fought his manifestation of Vader in the cave on Dagobah. This emanation is the sum total of Anakin's fears, and it overwhelms him. The Emperor claims that this mysterious cloaked warrior is the pupil that Obi-wan failed to fully train, and from a certain point of view, this is true. The Emperor gives this figure the most evil sounding name he can think of: Darth Vader, so as to play on Anakin's fears. Finally, as Episode 3 closes, we see a cloaked figure step out from the Emperor's palace, his face darkened and mysterious. We assume that it is Obi-wan's secret apprentice, now revealed as the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy. It is only in Episode 5 that we have the information to understand the truth, for when Luke fights Vader on Dagobah, we realize the illusion of Episode 3 for what it is. The Emperor does not try and pull the same trick on Luke because he knows that Luke has already fought most of his inner demons, and only by goading him to anger will they succeed in turning him.
Interesting approach to the ending. Is the 2nd apprentice fully developed prior to this point? Does he also turn to the Dark Side prior to this moment? Seeing how the apprentice that Anakin thinks he is fighting is an apparition of Palpatine's devising... what actually happens to the 2nd apprentice. How do you ensure that the audience assumes it is the 2nd apprentice and not a fallen Anakin?
Or, as you said, you make it so the audience never suspects Anakin's fall and therefore the only dark figure that could surive the fight is the dark figure that entered the fight?
As I've thought about this, I think one possible solution is to end Episode 2 roughly where Return of the Jedi could have ended. Anakin uses the Dark Side to defeat the big bad, who told him (along with Obiwan) that using the Dark Side powers would be his own end. Anakin comes out of this experience feeling pretty good, like either the Dark Side isn't to be feared as much as he was told, or that he is specially invulnerable to its charms.
Then comes episode 3. An emboldened Anakin single-handedly starts to win the War, making a name for himself. He is fighting fire with fire, and his singular goal is to find the leader of the evil army and take him out. Anakin's the most powerful Jedi ever (or so it would seem) and yet when he finally catches up to this Palpatine guy, he is smacked down. He is shown that there is more that he can learn.
And this Palpatine guy isn't so bad afterall- he uses the Dark Side... but so does Anakin. Anakin uses it to push forward the cause of peace... but that's what Palpatine claims to use it for as well. Only by joining forces can they stop the war. Only by ensuring that all forces are joined together can they bring peace to the galaxy.
The Dark Jedi don't want to kill the Jedi... they want to unite with them to bring peace to the universe. The Jedi are the bloodthirsty ones who can't abide the Dark Jedi and want to kill them. The Dark Jedi don't abstain from using the Light Side of the Force- they use the Whole Force... The Jedi however, are judgemental and divisive and shun the very power that would bring about their so-called goal of "peace and prosperity".
Why not use the tools that fate has put in your hands to bring to pass the righteous desires of your heart. To bring peace? If a planet with a strong military goes to war with a smaller military, don't they use their advantage to bring a swifter, more merciful, end to the conflict. What if their military was so big as to completely dissuade armed conflict in the first place? Would it make sense to leave most of their arms at home?
And so on. Something that can convert a hero like Anakin to be the villain for 20 years until his kid shows up and shows a better way.