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Changes in 2004 DVDs — Page 43

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Let's not get into that "true fan" shit. One of my biggest peeves on this issue is how both sides claim that they're bigger fans for liking their version. It's nonsense, and it's more damaging to Star Wars than Lucas' meddling. There are more informed fans than others, there are more easy going ones than others, and there are more obsessive ones than others, etc. None of these groups are "true" fans any more than the others. There are different levels of devotion, that's it.


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

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Originally posted by: Sam_Lu
Come on, you can't compare a small matte clean-up as a one-to-one "change" with the segment between Han and Jabba in Star Wars. One goes by in a the bat of an eye, while the other drones on endlessly, and changes the entire pace of the movie.

Duration and effect on the story are the prime considerations when looking at these things, otherwise Lucas could just re-film the entire trilogy and state he only made ONE small change.

P.S., just for the record, I COULDN'T CARE LESS abut Lucas updating the visual effects in the EXISTING FOOTAGE of the Original Trilogy. Clear? It's the NEW FOOTAGE, INSERTED FX, and BLATANT STORY CHANGES that bother me.

Clear?


That scene was always meant to be there. They didn't have the time or money to create the stop motion puppet. Thats how it was orginally filmed and scripted. There are no real story changes. Its the same story I have always loved.
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Have you ever stopped and looked at the Jabba scene objectively? Reading an interesting site on the SEs, I agree with his conclusion. There's no way George's, "couldn't fit in the effects" statement works. The sequence is not an effects sequence. Watch Han, he walks around the rather large and difficult to hide placeholder actor. He gestures in front of him. Heck, they're walking!! These things make the insertion of a stop motion creature nearly impossible at the time. it would've cost more than the rest of the effects. If it had meant to use a puppet, the two would have stood still, and the placeholder wouldn't have been so large. Also, consider the fact that Lucas didn't even fully design Jabba for the film. It's not an effects shot, and I doubt it was meant to be one.

The scene was cut for one reason, and one reason alone, it stunk. The dialogue's redundant, it spoils the Falcon's reveal, and it alludes to things that don't even impact the film. It wastes time, and is completely unnecessary. Don't give me any of that "it ties IV to VI better' garbage either. That's what Greedo's for. It does affect the story. Vader's shuttle, Jedi Rocks, Mos Eisley, The Celebration, Hayden, they all affect the story. Some do so out right, other through pacing, setting, feel. Jimbo, I respect you're right to disagree, but could you please come up with retorts that don't quote documenteries and interviews word for word. An original stance would be nice.


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

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Originally posted by: jimbo
That scene was always meant to be there. They didn't have the time or money to create the stop motion puppet. Thats how it was orginally filmed and scripted. There are no real story changes. Its the same story I have always loved.


Gah!

Yes Jimbo it's true that originally Han met Jabba in Docking Bay 94 in the draft scripts and in the filming process...

HOWEVER in the editing bay it made more sense to drop the scene than it did to include it because the information had already been delivered by Greedo and it ruined the unveiling of the Millennium Falcon a few scenes later not to mention the fact that it spoiled the mystery behind the gangster Hutt Jabba who'd pout this price on Han's head.

AND SO it was rightly dumped for narrative reasons.

UNTIL the senile old fart decided that telling the audience something twice is SO MUCH better than telling them something once and the plaid hack decided to reinclude the scene in order to make the film 'special'.

Special like a short yellow bus.

(I'm drunk right now so I'm not going to proof read this but I feel that my main points have been made.)
"The people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country." - Goering.

"If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." - Goebbels.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - Orwell.
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It's quite obvious that Jimbo has no idea how movies are made, or just how much raw footage is shot to make a 2 hour movie.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, but the success of the Star Wars final cut was as much a product of Richard Chew's excellent editing, as Lucas' writing. With the crappy SE and SSE 2004 versions, this is clear for anyone to see.
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Originally posted by: Klingon_Jedi
Have you ever stopped and looked at the Jabba scene objectively? Reading an interesting site on the SEs, I agree with his conclusion. There's no way George's, "couldn't fit in the effects" statement works. The sequence is not an effects sequence. Watch Han, he walks around the rather large and difficult to hide placeholder actor. He gestures in front of him. Heck, they're walking!! These things make the insertion of a stop motion creature nearly impossible at the time. it would've cost more than the rest of the effects. If it had meant to use a puppet, the two would have stood still, and the placeholder wouldn't have been so large. Also, consider the fact that Lucas didn't even fully design Jabba for the film. It's not an effects shot, and I doubt it was meant to be one.

The scene was cut for one reason, and one reason alone, it stunk. The dialogue's redundant, it spoils the Falcon's reveal, and it alludes to things that don't even impact the film. It wastes time, and is completely unnecessary. Don't give me any of that "it ties IV to VI better' garbage either. That's what Greedo's for. It does affect the story. Vader's shuttle, Jedi Rocks, Mos Eisley, The Celebration, Hayden, they all affect the story. Some do so out right, other through pacing, setting, feel. Jimbo, I respect you're right to disagree, but could you please come up with retorts that don't quote documenteries and interviews word for word. An original stance would be nice.


That is what he said in the audio commentary.
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I don't believe anything Lucas says. Have you ever seen the man say, "I was wrong?" No. He denies just about everything I have ever seen him say in the past. The only promise I have seen him keep so far is that 1995 would be the last time the Originals would ever be available. That statement was made on the 1995 VHS and I'm pretty sure the LD release as well.

Even though he said that, I didn't accept it. I don't know where he came up with the always saying he was "only happy with something like 35% of the films". He didn't start talking like that until recently. I remember him saying that he originally planned to do nine films and they would all be told from the eyes of the two droids. I also remember him saying back in 1982 that he was really upset how he was forced to release Star Wars on VHS and how he hated Pan&Scan. Because of that, he said he wouldn't release Empire of the upcoming Jedi on home video until some ridiculous date like 1999 or something. I don't remember the date, but that obviously didn't happen. Also remember the excuses he made for deciding to release the films on DVD before Episode III was finished.

With Lucas it is always either a denial or excuse. Never, "Well, I changed my mind." or "I was mistaken.". Hell, if I am wrong and I realize it, I will say, "I was wrong.". I really wish I could dig up all of these articles and interviews. Some are easy since they were made more recently and on the Internet. However, some will be hard to find, because they were in printed material many years ago. I'm not the only one who read this stuff though, so I know there are others my age who probably know where to find the articles.

Patrick
"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." - Tuco from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly
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Speaking of that, I remember reading interviews where George stated that the prequels would take place "a hundred years or more before Star Wars"... but obviously that article was incorrect (LOL) as the sad-ass "Anakin Skywalker: The Life and Times A&E Special" prequels attested.

At the core of the issue is how George panders to the small, but incredibly vocal, group of Lucas Fanboys, and basically gives them exactly what they want. Stupid SE and SSE versions for these poor, dateless souls to gab about incessantly (instead of being concerned about real life and *gasp* girls!!), a prequel that changed significantly into a "How Anakin Became Darth Biopic", and interviews that applaud the "current fanbase" for following the "vision and teachings" of their God George Lucas.

It's sad really.
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Originally posted by: jimbo
That is what he said in the audio commentary.


Wait, he actually admitted that it wasn't intended to be a special effects shot. He admitted that it's redundant, poorly written, and pointless? Let me guess, you only read the part about the effect being too expensive due to lack of planning, right?


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

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Originally posted by: Klingon_Jedi
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Originally posted by: jimbo
That is what he said in the audio commentary.


Wait, he actually admitted that it wasn't intended to be a special effects shot. He admitted that it's redundant, poorly written, and pointless? Let me guess, you only read the part about the effect being too expensive due to lack of planning, right?


No he said it was intended to be an effects shot
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His word isn't law you know. He has changed his mind before. I honestly can't believe he would let that much movement happen if he intended it to be an effects shot. I used to believe it. It just doesn't add up. If one's going to use a stop motion puppet, why would they:

A. Make the stand in so large. This makes him harder to cover.
B. Have contant frame movement. It's hard enough blending things standing still. Adding motion makes thing more complicated.
C. Have an actor contently move in front of the effects area. They had trouble with Han's finger using CGI, it would be harder with film compositing. not only would the character have to fit, they would have to cut out Han in each frame.

This leaves two conclusions.

1. The stand-in was Jabba. It wasn't an effects shot. Lucas cut it for story flow. In 97, he needed what Walt Disney called "a wienie"for his re-release so he put Jabba back in. Except, when he did RotJ, he decided to make Jabba a slug. Making a non-effects shot a effects shot.
2. Lucas is truly a horrible director at special effects. Wanting a complex stop motion puppet, then filming the scene in a way that makes inserting said puppet impossible. Even I can't imagine he's that short-sighted.

Of course, there's a third possibilty. That Lucas changed his mind during filming, and decided he wanted a puppet instead of a human. Only Lucas knows. One thing's for sure, it's not an effects shot. In the end, it doesn't change the fact that it's the single, worst part of the film.

Please, offer your own opinion. As long as it's your opinion, and not, "George said......"


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

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I am new to this forums, and this is my first post, so, hi there.

First of all, I consider myself neither a Lucas-fanboy, nor a die-hard SW-fan, although I grew up with a lot of Star Wars in my life. Of course, I have only seen the OT on video (I am 23 now), but since then I was a fan not only of SW, but of visual effects. Over the years I got a quite notable collection of Star Wars books and toys, and even now, four posters of the non-SE trilogy are the only posters in my room. Of course, I was really thrilled when I learned about the SE being worked on, and it became my first opportunity seeing those movies on the big screen. And being an effects fan I generally liked the additions to the trilogy, including the extended Mos Eisley shots and the discussed Jabba scene.

I guess it's hard for me judging how the Jabba scene modifies the pace of the movie, since I have seen the movies so many times (and being a huge Harrison Ford fan, with Han being my absolute favourite character in SW), so that I am just happy to see MORE Star Wars (and Han) than before. Now, taking a step back and looking at this particular scene, I've gotta admit that Klingon_Jedi has a few points that really make Lucas' statements appear false. Generally I don't like Lucas since I have watched the "From Puppets to Pixels"-documentary on the EP2-DVD. I don't really know what it is, but this docu really makes me mad at Lucas. I didn't really think about what he said about the Jabba-scene, but now - with Klingon_Jedi's post as a remainder - it doesn't make sense claiming it being planned as a VFX shot.

Jabba being a slug, or an alien of ANY kind wasn't planned before ROTJ, that's for sure. Otherwise there would've been sketches of him in some publications dealing with the design of ANH. Second of all, Klingon_Jedi's right, the way the scene was shot, it could've NEVER been made a VFX-shot. And Lucas knows that. In "Empire of Dreams" (yeah, of course I own the new DVD-set *g*) it is shown that Marquand got help from Lucas on several shots requiring visual effects to be inserted, so Lucas really understood how a shot like that has to be set up. I've worked on a few commercials and industry-films, so I know about compositing and matching effects to moving footage, and there is NO way a stop motion figure could've been inserted into the Jabba shot back in 1976. So clearly, that's not the reason it got cut out.

A similar "inconsistency" of a Lucas-statement came to my mind when McQuarrie talked about his design-idea for Vader. He had the idea for him wearing a mask, because he had to swap ships in space. On the other hand Lucas always claims, that he had written the whole story of the saga even before ANH got shot (and probably before it got designed), including the reason why Vader wears his mask (the lava-pit and stuff). So, either it was a GIGANTIC coincidence that McQuarrie gave Vader a mask, OR Lucas lied. I might as well be absolutely wrong here... maybe the first draft of the Saga didn't mention Vader's past at all... so, this is just a thought.
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There is always one telltale sign that George Lucas is lying.....

His lips are moving.
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Ok, my two cents.

The Jabba scene. First of all, I have to say (inspite of the poor CGI effects) that I like the scene. I always have. Ever since I read it in the novelization of Star Wars. Now, if I remember correctly, in the novel Jabba isn't described as a huge slug. I would have to pull the book off the shelf to verify this, but I seem to recall that Jabba came across (at least to me) as just some crime lord who Han happened to owe money to. For me, I have always felt that the scene needed to be in there just because I think seeing Jabba is important. I understand that not seeing Jabba until Jedi does add mystery to the character and makes his reveal in Jedi that much better. Yes the scene was cut because it was redundant. Some one even states this in Empire of Dreams. I just happen to like the scene and I'm glad that it is in the film. Granted, they still haven't gotten Jabba to look right in the scene but the way it is now I can live with it. It's far from perfect. And yes, it has been known for years (and even stated by Lucas himself) that as ROTJ progressed the design for Jabba changed. I serioulsy don't think that Lucas really had anything in mind at the time the original Jabba scene in ANH was filmed.

Now, if anyone has listened to the commentary on the new DVDs Lucas himself states that he never intended to go back and film the prequals. I don't remember which film he states this on, but he does say it. It was only after the ground breaking CGI of Jurassic Park that he began to think about the prequals. Lucas states that they way he originally invisioned the trilogy was that of a Saturday Matinee serial. I don't remember his exact quote on the subject, but that is why he started with Episode IV. He simply wanted to drop the audience right into the middle of the story and he really never had any intention of ever doing Episodes I-III. Yes, I know that he wrote an outline for the back story, but that was more for his own use to help him shape the story of Episodes IV-VI. This at least makes sense to me.

Now, all of the above is completely contradictory to what he stated in 77 and 78 that the whole story was a 9 part saga. I do believe that it was a nine part story, but I don't think that he really intended to go back and film the rest. If you look at IV-VI, it's really not necessary to see the events of I-III. All of the pertinent events of I-III are mentioned in IV-VI. As a kid and later as an adult, I did speculate on what had led up to Anakin becoming Vader, but in all honesty it wasn't all that compelling for me to see it. As I stated all of the important information is contained in the original trilogy.

Keeping The Star Wars Hoiliday Special alive. Once person at a time. Stir, stir, whip, whip, stir, beat, beat.
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Originally posted by: Sam_Lu
There is always one telltale sign that George Lucas is lying.....

His lips are moving.


Sam Lu, please add something constructive along with your comment. I'm tired of arguing with people. Just a friendly suggestion. ^_^

R2, I've read the novel as well. The scene just doesn't work in the film. Jabba isn't important in IV. They had Greedo allud that Han needed money bad, we don't need Jabba. Plus, why is Boba Fett there. The most feared bounty hunter in the galaxy takes a job to scare up some rogue smuggler? The scene was ok in the book, better in the radio drama, and just plain dead wight in the film. That's my view however.


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

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He said when he made A New Hope that Jabba was intended to be a furry character like Chewbacca. He changed him to a large slug as time went on. Jabba was never intended to be human.
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Han used to have a girlfriend, yet he claims he always envisioned Leia as his only love. Again, jimbo, I ask for your thoughts, not Lucas'.


Made for IE Forum's Episode III theme month - May 2005.

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Don't forget the Cantina scene on the Behind The Magic CD-Rom where Han has a girl sitting with him and I believe he even pats her on the behind when she gets up as Ben and Luke are coming over. I could be wrong about exactly what happened in that scene, but I do remember there was a girl with Han there. It's a shame that that footage was in such poor condition that it faded all the way back to black and white. I'll have to dig out that CD-Rom to check it out. I really loved the weapons test where you try weapons out on a Stormtrooper.

Patrick
"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." - Tuco from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly
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That's what I'm referring to. Lucas actually shot footage of Han kissing another woman. My point is that the man constantly changes his mind, then acts like the new version was always his intent.


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Oh, c'mon... like Han wasn't the type of guy to get a hooker...
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No he was the type to get a princess that makes out with her brother.
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Originally posted by: Laserschwert
Oh, c'mon... like Han wasn't the type of guy to get a hooker...


Tha'ts not what I'm arguing. Lucas has claimed he always intended Leia to be his only love. Not only did he originally write him as having a wife, he also filmed his first appearence as being with a girlfriend named Jenny. To top it off, in the EU, which he supervises, Han's official first love was a women named Brea. It's a minor point, but I'm simply saying that Lucas will act like he never had any ideas except what has come to pass.


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See I'm just like Solo.

I've had plenty of women, none that I really loved, untill I met the mother of my future kid.
I love her more than anything.

Just coz Solo was with another bird, doesn't mean he was in love with her!

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I was wondering if someone with the new DVD's could do me a favor. Could they check the scene in ESB where Needa takes his shuttle to the Executor to apologize to Lord Vader? Does Needa's shuttle still look like a box or did they change it to make it look like the shuttles in ROTJ?

Thanks.

Patrick
"When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk." - Tuco from The Good, The Bad And The Ugly
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Originally posted by: Patrick R.
I was wondering if someone with the new DVD's could do me a favor. Could they check the scene in ESB where Needa takes his shuttle to the Executor to apologize to Lord Vader? Does Needa's shuttle still look like a box or did they change it to make it look like the shuttles in ROTJ?

Thanks.

Patrick


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