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Info Wanted: The laserdiscs vs. The best bootlegs — Page 2

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Well, the benefit is that you can watch the image on a 16:9 screen without using the often inaccurate "zoom" feature. In terms of visual quality, it's never going to be any better than what was originally pulled off the disc.

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Well for me, I was really looking forward to the TR47 set. But unfortunately, it appears slightly less stable and more pixelated on my computer monitor than the Dr. Gonzo set. Maybe on the TV, it would look better...? I use WinDVD to watch both of them. I also noticed, in both sets, some vertical bands that disort the brightness. These are especially noticeable in the Dr. Gonzo ROTJ. I suppose this was caused by interference in the cables that transfered the original LD source onto the computer?

When it comes down to it, I prefer the anamorphic set because it provides clean artificial black bars instead of pixelated bars with splotches of dark greys. Like Pagz said, it would be nice if non-anamorphic transfers could have their black bars excised and replaced with clean ones.

Also, if you have both the Gonzo and TR47 sets, take a look at the title scrolls to see if you notice the artifacts in the text of the TR47 version that are absent in the Gonzo version.
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"Is it true that anamorphic offers no benefits (and in fact might make it worse) since the source isn’t anamorphic?"

"I think that greatly depends on the quality of the zoom feature on your widescreen tv. "

"The "benefits" of Anamorphic will be reaped solely by those who are in possession of 16:9 displays. If you're watching these on a standard 4:3 TV, the anamorphic will mean nothing for you really. I'm unfamiliar with the process of making the image anamorphic, so I can't really say if it will be worse or not. Making an image anamorphic artificially seems to me to have an inherent limitation built into it. Whether that limitation translates to a worse picture on a 4:3 set, or merely a somewhat less than stellar picture on a 16:9 display, I can't say."


Just to be clear: taking a 4X3 source and blowing it up to 16x9 causes you to "lose" resolution. It's like taking a JPEG of a swimsuit model and zooming in - you begin to see the pixels at a certain point.

On top of that, if you take that same image and then watch it on a 4x3 monitor, you lose even more resolution, because the DVD player has to remove every third (fourth) line of resolution to make the image fit. Obviously, these effects can be more or less noticeable depending on the equipment you are using, but the end result is the same. Watching a 4x3-to-16x9 transfer on a 4x3 tv is a double-whammy to the ultimate visual result. Depending on the quality and calibration of your television, however, this effect can range from unnoticeable to glaringly obvious. Case in point: matte lines. Some people claim to see them on the DVD, and others don't. Point of fact - they are visible on the DVD, but if you adjust your brightness/contrast beyond a certain level, they will "disappear".

If you only have a 4x3 television, then you only want the 4x3 transfer. There's no benefit to you at all to have an anamorphic version. If you have a widescreen tv, then either set is fine. (The "anamorphic" set is pretty much what you would get if you zoomed in on the 4x3 picture. The only difference would come from which device zooms better: the software used to create the anamorphic image, or the ability of the tv to zoom without creating too many artifacts. In that respect, your mileage may vary.

Hope that made sense.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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MeBeJedi -

I'm starting to get confused here. I've read through the threads, but may have missed something. The source you're extracting from is widescreen, non-animorphic. To make your "4x3" set, have you actually zoomed in and cut the edges of the picture off to make a 1.33:1 aspect ratio, or are you calling it "4x3" rather than "non-animorphic" and still leaving it widescreen (2.35:1)?


Rebelscum-

I have all 4 sets on laserdisc and when I play them on my Pioneer DVL-919, the quality of the 1997 SE LD's rivals DVD on my 27' flatscreen TV. The Faces and Definitive Collection sets are very nice looking too, with the faces set being a little noisier and the 1989 set is nothing to write home about, granted it's an old transfer, but it still blows VHS out of the water. Compared to the LD>DVD transfers available, the LD's on a dialed in player are superior, naturally because they lack the generation loss incurred when the video is extracted to the computer (think copying a cassette tape). That said, seeing the screen caps from the latest 3 projects (MeBeJedi, Zion and Laserman (arg..can't remember if Laserman posted pics...)), it's safe to say that they've managed to severely minimize any generation loss and perhaps have managed to enhance the picture slightly through the use of appropriate filters and noise reduction. I really can't wait to get a hold of these sets and give them a whirl.

Thanks guys for your hard work!

w
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Originally posted by: wainsco
MeBeJedi -

I'm starting to get confused here. I've read through the threads, but may have missed something. The source you're extracting from is widescreen, non-animorphic. To make your "4x3" set, have you actually zoomed in and cut the edges of the picture off to make a 1.33:1 aspect ratio, or are you calling it "4x3" rather than "non-animorphic" and still leaving it widescreen (2.35:1)?


I believe what MeBeJedi is referring to is the fact that all WideScreen laserdiscs are letterboxed meaning that they are at the correct ration but to make them fit on the standard 4:3 screen black bars are added to the top and bottom. So, what you have in the case of Star Wars is a 2.35:1 image that has had black bars placed on the top and bottom to fill out the full 1.33:1 (4x3) TV screen. This is very unfortunate but necessary considering that we didn't have 16:9 TVs at the time.

That being said, you can get a much better transfer of a letterboxed video source if you crop out the black bars at the top and bottom. If encoding to 4:3 the encoder will add computer generated "black bars" at the top and bottom. These new black bars will be solid black and much cleaner than the fuzzy grayish and pixelated black bars you will get from letterboxed video. Another great thing about cropping out the black bars is that the encoding time will be dramatically reduced.

So, what TR47 obviously did was a direct conversion rather than cropping out the black bars and replacing them with new generated versions. TR47's motive was to give us a transfer that was as close as possible to the letterboxed laserdiscs. However, he could have done the same thing by cropping out the bars. The quality of the video would not have changed.

I hope MeBeJedi is doing this (the cropping) for his non-anamorphic version. If not, MeBeJedi, please crop those bars

Believe me, I have tested this, you will not sacrifice quality on the video by removing the black bars and letting the encoder add them back in... if 4:3 is what you intend to produce.

To all interested, this process of adding the black bars to the video is sometimes called "fraiming" or "re-fraiming". The idea is to preserve the widescreen presentation on a standard 4:3 screen.

FYI, a letterboxed DVD can be made to be 16:9 Anamorphic without re-encoding the DVD... look that one up on VideoHelp kiddies
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http://www.gearsoftware.com/LayerBreakPoint.cfm

"The source you're extracting from is widescreen, non-animorphic. To make your "4x3" set, have you actually zoomed in and cut the edges of the picture off to make a 1.33:1 aspect ratio, or are you calling it "4x3" rather than "non-animorphic" and still leaving it widescreen (2.35:1)?"

I think you are confusing the terms "letterbox", "widescreen", and "anamorphic".

"I believe what MeBeJedi is referring to is the fact that all WideScreen laserdiscs are letterboxed meaning that they are at the correct ration but to make them fit on the standard 4:3 screen black bars are added to the top and bottom. So, what you have in the case of Star Wars is a 2.35:1 image that has had black bars placed on the top and bottom to fill out the full 1.33:1 (4x3) TV screen. This is very unfortunate but necessary considering that we didn't have 16:9 TVs at the time."

Precisely. That being said, keep in mind that 16x9 translates to a 1.78:1 ratio. Star Wars was shot at 2.35:1, so while it will still have black bars at the top and bottom, they will be less than half the size of those found on a 4x3 (1.33:1) transfer.

"These new black bars will be solid black and much cleaner than the fuzzy grayish and pixelated black bars you will get from letterboxed video. Another great thing about cropping out the black bars is that the encoding time will be dramatically reduced."

And I was very happy to figure out how to do this to my masters in VirtualDub.

"I hope MeBeJedi is doing this (the cropping) for his non-anamorphic version. If not, MeBeJedi, please crop those bars"

See above.

"FYI, a letterboxed DVD can be made to be 16:9 Anamorphic without re-encoding the DVD..."

And still maintain the aspect ratio? (Do you post on Videohelp too! LOL!)

Also, technically speaking, "anamorphic" DVDs are not truly anamorphic. The process is are quite the opposite, actually, though it doesn't make a whole lot of difference to most people.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Ah, thanks Ash and MeBeJedi. I was, indeed, confusing the terms. I thought you had made the video into a 'full-screen' presentation for 4x3 tv's...thank God you didn't Thanks again guys.

w
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Originally posted by: MeBeJedi...
"FYI, a letterboxed DVD can be made to be 16:9 Anamorphic without re-encoding the DVD..."

And still maintain the aspect ratio? (Do you post on Videohelp too! LOL!)


While I have never tried out the process, DarthGates did an awesome Anamorphic version of the Cartoon Network's "Clone Wars" series and he actually used an existing letterboxed DVD source to create his anamorphic version. He included some very highly detailed instructions with his torrent of the DVD. I'll have to see if I can dig it up because I am interested in using this process on some stuff I have.

As for VideoHelp, that site is a great resource but between work, family, posting to this forum and the RPF, sadly I haven't had any time to post there... but yes, I am registered there... BadAsh or BadAsh71... can't remember
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MeBeJedi - as I've told Rowman and others, I might want to be involved with creating extras for a future bootleg DVD release of the OT, to add to the superb extra discs already done by him and others.

Basically, I am seriously considering doing a documentary about the deleted scenes, and editing together all the little clips that have leaked, completely reedited and presented in a new way ... also clips of the production footage with original voices etc.

I am currently editing a feature film called Gods of Los Angeles, so I'm very busy, but perhaps when I'm done editing that.
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I am not against extras and all that, but I hope someone can do a dual-layer transfer and use up all the space for purely audio and video, and possibly use the LPCM sound like the TR47 DVD since everyone says that's the best way for sound from an LD. Oh a static menu would be cool too just so it's looks more professional.

Maybe make a special extras only DVD? Or mutiple DVD versions. Wouldn't mind seeing a DL regular and DL anamorphic to compare if my widescreen TV can get better results from one or the other.
"but i was going to the toshi station to pick up some power converters!" wahhhhh
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"he actually used an existing letterboxed DVD source to create his anamorphic version. He included some very highly detailed instructions with his torrent of the DVD."

Did some quick research. and Ifoedit does it with a simple check-box. I'll have to burn some sample DVDs to see what the output is like.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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"I hope MeBeJedi is doing this (the cropping) for his non-anamorphic version. If not, MeBeJedi, please crop those bars"

See above.

So that means you're doing the subs for the Greedo scene yourself then?
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Yep. I put the cropped footage into Vegas, and used the text generator to put subs just below the picture. (They are a little easier to read now.)

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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MeBeJedi -- So are you making both anamorphic and letterboxed (non-anamorphic widescreen for anyone who is confused) versions or just the letterboxed version?

What about Zion and Laserman? What are they making? Anamorphic or non? Or both?

And, are all of you using the "Faces" LDs? Some of you? Which ones? What is the source for the other ones if they aren't using the "faces" set?


I was also under the impression that even though the 1995 THX "Faces" transfer was better, the 1993 Definitive Collection LD source was still higher quality because it was CAV format. I found it odd that LFL would put a superior transfer on LDs in an inferior format but that's what I understood to be the case. So, do you guys feel that the "Faces" LDs are better quality and will produce a better DVD transfer?

I haven't bought any sets yet and I'm wondering which ones are worth it. In the meantime while you three are working on your transfers, I will definetly get the TR47 version, but maybe I'd do well to wait until you three are done before I get any additional sets. What do you think? Obviously if your Anamorphic sets are better than there's no reason to waste time/money with the Dr.Gonzo or Farsight versions.

Have any of you thought about getting your versions professionally pressed? I would love the chance to get factory pressed OT DVDs, and judging by the excitement surrounding your transfers they sound like they certainly deserve that treatment. Being that we can buy professionally produced slipcase tins it would be great if the discs themselves looked that good as well.

Also, does anyone know anything about the new set TR47 is making? I say set, but I only saw one reference to it somewhere in these forums and I can't remember if he said he had this great source for all three films or just ANH. What exactly IS his source? I remember the phrase "Master tapes."

Sorry for the million questions but I just have so many, I can't help myself! lol

I was also wondering HOW LaserDiscs can be analog...I just assumed because they used optical laser technology that they must be digital like DVDs and CDs. How exactly are they analog? I never had a LD player or even knew anyone who did, so all I know about them I learned from this forum and various other sources online. I have no firsthand knowledge though.

"What is best in life Conan?"
"To crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women!"
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"MeBeJedi -- So are you making both anamorphic and letterboxed (non-anamorphic widescreen for anyone who is confused) versions"

Correct. I'm just waiting on some software that would assist me in cleaning up the picture for the anamorphic version. There's a lot of shit in frame that needs to be fixed.

"I was also under the impression that even though the 1995 THX "Faces" transfer was better, the 1993 Definitive Collection LD source was still higher quality because it was CAV format."

It only means the individual frames are cleaner. Plus, older LD players were only able to do tricks like visual pause/rewind/fast forward with CAV disks. Later players were better equipped to do these tricks with CLV as well. In terms of overall play, it really didn't make a tremendous difference (except in overall running time per side.)

"I was also wondering HOW LaserDiscs can be analog..."

Just because it uses a laser, doesn't mean it's digital. It's essentially like a record player, in that the signal is stored as the actual wavelengths. This is the one good things about using laserdisc for a master - the audio and video are not compressed, unlike DVD. (However, a laserdisc with AC3 or DTS does have a digitally compressed/stored soundtrack.)

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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Will you be hardcoding the subs onto the picture? If so what font are you going to use?
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I realize the LD technology is analog, but what about the optical digital-out ports that were on many models, including my old Sony? Would those conceivably help with a higher-quality output?
http://web.newsguy.com/theprofessional/ebay/sw_logo_s.jpg
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I always thought that laserdisc was a digital format, so this is all news to me. Uncompressed audio and video. That´s a beautiful thing indeed. I wonder if it would be possible to introduce a new laserdisc format that would not use those big ass 12" discs but instead the same size as DVD. Would it be possible to fit a similar amount of data onto one of those suckers as can be done with DVD´s? Maybe someone on here who has followed the laserdisc phenomenon closely can shed some light on what might have been possible to move the laserdisc format forward without making it digital? This is interesting stuff...

peace,

Rebelscum
peace,

Rebelscum
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"Will you be hardcoding the subs onto the picture? If so what font are you going to use?"

I did, though I forgot what font I used. It was pretty standard, and I sized them up to the original as much as possible.

"I realize the LD technology is analog, but what about the optical digital-out ports that were on many models, including my old Sony? Would those conceivably help with a higher-quality output?"

Yes. Think of it this way - if you were to record a song onto audio-cassette and onto the computer (as a .wav file), you would have much higher fidelity from the computer. Thye cassette takes the analog waveform and saves it in an analog format. The computer takes the analog waveform and saves it in a digital format, but it is still an analog waveform. This is why PCM soundtracks (on laserdisc or CD) are so large - it's the whole signal with no compression. In fact, PCM stands for "Pulse Code Modulation". Pulses (with their rise and fall) versus digital bits.

[EDIT] Bleh!

" I wonder if it would be possible to introduce a new laserdisc format that would not use those big ass 12" discs but instead the same size as DVD. Would it be possible to fit a similar amount of data onto one of those suckers as can be done with DVD´s?"

The new HD-DVDs hold between 30-50 GBs. An uncompressed capture of ANH is 200 GBs, so no.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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The video of laserdisc was/is analog, and originally the sound was as well. However not long after it started, they introduced digital sound on the laserdiscs. Those discs would be able to use the optical output of the laserdisc players and get true digital sound.

I transfered a few lasers (music titles) audio to my computer via the optical out > optical in, and noticed a my OLD (pre-digital sound) lasers wouldn't transfer via the optical out. So I believe that is ONLY for digital sound laserdiscs.

But the video was always analog.
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You know what, I think I goofed on some parts of my simplification. Take it a grain of salt until someone corrects me...it's hard to think this early in the morning holding my 4-month-old.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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It´s quite unbelievable taking a 200gb capture and burning it on a mere 4.7gb disc! That´s a hell of a downgrade fellas.

Anyway, MeBeJedi. What are the most apparent flaws you see when you´ve downgraded the capture to a DVD standard? What picture flaws do you see that weren´t in the original laserdisc? Does it go softer, is ghosting introduced and so on? Can u shed some light on the difference from source to destination?

peace,

Rebelscum
peace,

Rebelscum
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"I transfered a few lasers (music titles) audio to my computer via the optical out > optical in, and noticed a my OLD (pre-digital sound) lasers wouldn't transfer via the optical out. So I believe that is ONLY for digital sound laserdiscs."

Nope, it just means it didn't have a digital soundtrack to begin with.

Okay folks, I see my mistake. I reversed the process. Analog and digital signals can be stored on laserdisc, but they must be stored in analog form. The "envelope" is analog, not digital. Here are some examples...

http://home.netcom.com/~eandtc/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/soundtrack.jpg

"Anyway, MeBeJedi. What are the most apparent flaws you see when you´ve downgraded the capture to a DVD standard? What picture flaws do you see that weren´t in the original laserdisc? Does it go softer, is ghosting introduced and so on? Can u shed some light on the difference from source to destination?"

Sharp delineations are lost. Edges become softer, and objects with a range of colors (light brown to dark brown) have "bands" of colors, rather than a gradual change.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>

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"Sharp delineations are lost. Edges become softer, and objects with a range of colors (light brown to dark brown) have "bands" of colors, rather than a gradual change."

- Damn that compression to hell! I´m seriously starting to think about getting a laserdisc player and the Definitive Set or the 95 THX set. But anyway, do you expect those problems to be less noticeble if you do a dual layer transfer? With double the data to play with, wouldn´t that greatly lower the compression problems?

peace,

Rebelscum
peace,

Rebelscum
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To a large extent, yes, but the laserdisc masters, themselves, are already less sharp than the DVDs. Masters from the actual footage make all the difference.

In terms of sharpness, I can only hope to get it as close to the LD's as possible. (I've used a tiny bit of digital sharpening, but too much can induce digital artifacts and haloing.) As for the colors, however, I hope to improve on those greatly.

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: Sadly, I believe the prequels are beyond repair.
<span class=“Bold”>JediRandy: They’re certainly beyond any repair you’re capable of making.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>MeBeJedi: You aren’t one of us.
<span class=“Bold”>Go-Mer-Tonic: I can’t say I find that very disappointing.</span></span>

<span class=“Italics”>JediRandy: I won’t suck as much as a fan edit.</span>