The Controversial Discussions Thread (Was "The Prejudice Discussion Thread" (Was "The Human Sexuality Discussion Thread" (Was "The Homosexuality Discussion Thread"))) — Page 9

TV's Frink said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Leonardo said:

Warbler said:

TV's Frink said:

There were comments on the previous page bemoaning the fact that it's ok to "bash" Christianity but not homosexuality.  That's what I was responding to.

 It is perfectly acceptable in society to bash Christianity. 

Yeah, look, you're comparing apples and cacti here. On one hand, you have the bashing of an organized religion, which I won't go into. On the other hand, you have the bashing of people, being what they are. The two do not equate.

No, not the bashing of people necessarily, but the bashing of what they do.

 Telling someone that what they do is a sin and they are going to hell because of it is considered bashing by most non-religious people.

 Those people are only going to hell if they continue doing it and also realize how wrong their actions are. You wouldn't tell someone to stop "bashing" a kid because they were warning a kid not to stick a nail in an electrical outlet. We aren't trying to bash people, but trying to stop them from doing what is wrong.

It is your opinion that what they are doing is wrong.  I know sticking a nail in an outlet is wrong because I know the consequences.  You think you know the consequences of homosexual sex, but it's nothing more than an opinion.

I think it is wrong that you tell people how to live their lives.  Especially when the way they live their lives harms no one and brings them happiness.

RicOlie_2 said:

Those people are only going to hell if they continue doing it and also realize how wrong their actions are.

...

We aren't trying to bash people, but trying to stop them from doing what is wrong.

After thinking about this a little more, I'm even more annoyed.  Saying things like this is one of the reasons people attack religion and those who practice it.

TV's Frink said:

I think it is wrong that you tell people how to live their lives. 

but he doesn't force them to live their lives that way.  

TV's Frink said:

Especially when the way they live their lives harms no one and brings them happiness.

 you mean  like Christianity?      Me living my life as Christian harms no one, and brings me happiness.

TV's Frink said:

Telling someone that what they do is a sin and they are going to hell because of it is considered bashing by most non-religious people.

 Unfortunately, I don't get to decide what is and is not sin.   God decides that.   And I don't believe homosexuals are automatically going to hell.   It is up to God to decide that.  

I understand telling homosexuals that I believe homosexuality is a sin could hurt their feelings.   But I just can't compromise my religious beliefs.   If someone asks me, I have to speak the truth. 

I think one should also keep in mind that I believe everyone has sinned.   Christians believe there is one person that ever lived that was without sin and we are about celebrate his birthday.    

To use a well known saying: "the truth hurts." You can say that whatever makes you feel good is right, but then you are just avoiding admitting that you might be wrong (yeah, this could be aimed back at me, so maybe I shouldn't have made this post, but I think the truth does hurt and I think it is the truth that homosexual acts are wrong).

^I'm going to regret saying that...maybe I should remove it before it's too late...

...

...

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...Nah. ;)

Warbler said:

TV's Frink said:

I think it is wrong that you tell people how to live their lives. 

but he doesn't force them to live their lives that way.  

TV's Frink said:

Especially when the way they live their lives harms no one and brings them happiness.

 you mean  like Christianity?      Me living my life as Christian harms no one, and brings me happiness.

 Agreed on both...so what's your point?

Warbler said:

TV's Frink said:

Telling someone that what they do is a sin and they are going to hell because of it is considered bashing by most non-religious people.

 Unfortunately, I don't get to decide what is and is not sin.   God decides that.   And I don't believe homosexuals are automatically going to hell.   It is up to God to decide that.  

  

 While I don't share your absolute belief in God, I think your position here is quite reasonable.

RicOlie_2 said:

To use a well known saying: "the truth hurts." You can say that whatever makes you feel good is right, but then you are just avoiding admitting that you might be wrong (yeah, this could be aimed back at me, so maybe I shouldn't have made this post, but I think the truth does hurt and I think it is the truth that homosexual acts are wrong).

Of course I will aim this back at you.  Your views are much more rigid than mine.

I'm agnostic.  I fully concede that God might exist, and you guys (Catholics) might be right about God and Jesus and the whole thing.  I also concede that every other religion might be right.  And I find it quite likely that none of you are right, or you've all got some of it right and some of it wrong.

I don't avoid admitting I might be wrong...I embrace it.

I might be wrong about homosexuality.  Perhaps it is a sin and they are going to hell.  But I have no reason to think that, and I find it much more likely that any perfect being that actually exists would be in full support of a loving relationship between two consenting adults.

...

Just for fun, let's pretend I have a book called the Bloof.  My God spoke to man years and years and years ago, and proclaimed that all must follow the Bloof.  The Bloof specifically says that Catholicism is a false religion and any who follow it are doomed to eternity in hell.  Further, it is my duty as a chosen Bloofite to convince Catholics that they are wrong and living against the wishes of God.  I am utterly convinced in the word of my God as recorded in the Bloof.

I love you as a fellow human being, but the way you are living your life is wrong.

How does that make you feel?  Do you appreciate my wanting to save you from hell for following a false God?

TV's Frink said:

Just for fun, let's pretend I have a book called the Koran.  Allah spoke to man years and years and years ago, and proclaimed that all must follow the Koran.  The Koran specifically says that Catholicism is a false religion and any who follow it are doomed to eternity in hell.  Further, it is my duty as a chosen Muslim to convince Catholics that they are wrong and living against the wishes of Allah .  I am utterly convinced in the word of my Allah as recorded in the Koran.

fixed it for a real religion.   If I worked on TV and talked bad about this religion, I could get fired.

TV's Frink said:

I love you as a fellow human being, but the way you are living your life is wrong.

How does that make you feel?  Do you appreciate my wanting to save you from hell for following a false God?

 I would disagree with you and continue to believe what I believe.   However,  being a religious person myself I could put myself in there shoes and understand why you do what you do.   In addition, I'd also be able to see how him believing the way I live my life is wrong, does not contradict him loving me as a fellow human being. 

TV's Frink said:

RicOlie_2 said:

To use a well known saying: "the truth hurts." You can say that whatever makes you feel good is right, but then you are just avoiding admitting that you might be wrong (yeah, this could be aimed back at me, so maybe I shouldn't have made this post, but I think the truth does hurt and I think it is the truth that homosexual acts are wrong).

Just for fun, let's pretend I have a book called the Bloof.  My God spoke to man years and years and years ago, and proclaimed that all must follow the Bloof.  The Bloof specifically says that Catholicism is a false religion and any who follow it are doomed to eternity in hell.  Further, it is my duty as a chosen Bloofite to convince Catholics that they are wrong and living against the wishes of God.  I am utterly convinced in the word of my God as recorded in the Bloof.

I love you as a fellow human being, but the way you are living your life is wrong.

How does that make you feel?  Do you appreciate my wanting to save you from hell for following a false God?

 I have encountered such people and they are more commonly known as Muslims as Warbler said/wrote. I understand the way they think in that regard, though I don't believe it, but I am not offended in the least. My family hires Mennonites who believe we're all going to hell, but they're nice people and I accept their beliefs as well. I'm happy that they want me to go to heaven, and I am even happier when they are persistent (if it is passive persistence and they aren't trying to convert me on pain of death), since they are showing that they care about other people (unless they're doing it for their own spiritual gain).

EDIT: By "accept" I mean that I accept it in the way I might accept that the SE is messed up and we will probably never get a pristine quality version of the unaltered originals , but I still hope and petition for the originals to be released in good quality.

I guess you're a better person than me, then.  When people want to convert me, it really rubs me the wrong way.

Warbler said:

TV's Frink said:

Just for fun, let's pretend I have a book called the Koran.  Allah spoke to man years and years and years ago, and proclaimed that all must follow the Koran.  The Koran specifically says that Catholicism is a false religion and any who follow it are doomed to eternity in hell.  Further, it is my duty as a chosen Muslim to convince Catholics that they are wrong and living against the wishes of Allah .  I am utterly convinced in the word of my Allah as recorded in the Koran.

fixed it for a real religion.   If I worked on TV and talked bad about this religion, I could get fired.

 Define "talked bad."  And don't link me to a definition of the two words.  What would you consider talking bad about religion?  What could I say on TV about Christians that would be fine but if I said it about Muslims I would get fired?

But regardless, my point stands in that Christians are the majority here.  Muslims are a minority.  I think Muslims in this country have enough to deal with as it is.  For example...do you wear a cross?  If so, do most people look at you funny for wearing it?

RicOlie_2 said:

EDIT: By "accept" I mean that I accept it in the way I might accept that the SE is messed up and we will probably never get a pristine quality version of the unaltered originals , but I still hope and petition for the originals to be released in good quality.

 Oh, The Church of Lucas isn't going to like that. :p

When people try to convert me by attacking my beliefs, I get offended I guess, so I get your point. If they tell me politely that the Bible has mistakes in it and give me their reasons and respect me when I say "Nuh uh, I'm sticking with this," then I'm fine with that. It's when people try to force me to believe something that I get offended. They can debate me, and as long as they don't attack me for my beliefs or continually push their beliefs on me I'm fine.

Having said that, I apologize if it looks like I'm trying to force my beliefs on you, as I don't intend it that way.

TV's Frink said:

Warbler said:

TV's Frink said:

Just for fun, let's pretend I have a book called the Koran.  Allah spoke to man years and years and years ago, and proclaimed that all must follow the Koran.  The Koran specifically says that Catholicism is a false religion and any who follow it are doomed to eternity in hell.  Further, it is my duty as a chosen Muslim to convince Catholics that they are wrong and living against the wishes of Allah .  I am utterly convinced in the word of my Allah as recorded in the Koran.

fixed it for a real religion.   If I worked on TV and talked bad about this religion, I could get fired.

 Define "talked bad."  And don't link me to a definition of the two words.  What would you consider talking bad about religion?  What could I say on TV about Christians that would be fine but if I said it about Muslims I would get fired?

Well, it depends on the show. If it's the news, it would probably be treated more fairly. For a TV show though, it is more acceptable to make fun of Christians than Muslims. In Family Guy they can get away with making fun of all sorts of Christian beliefs, etc., but it probably wouldn't go over so well if they started bashing Muslims. Maybe I'm wrong about that and that is just due to my Christian point of view, but maybe not.

But regardless, my point stands in that Christians are the majority here.  Muslims are a minority.  I think Muslims in this country have enough to deal with as it is.  For example...do you wear a cross?  If so, do most people look at you funny for wearing it?

 Not for wearing a cross/crucifix since they're so common, but I get "looked at funny" for wearing a scapular (which is a Catholic symbol of a certain devotion to Mary). Also, in countries in which Islam is the dominant religion, Christians and others tend to be killed for their beliefs all the time.

RicOlie_2 said:

When people try to convert me by attacking my beliefs, I get offended I guess, so I get your point. If they tell me politely that the Bible has mistakes in it and give me their reasons and respect me when I say "Nuh uh, I'm sticking with this," then I'm fine with that. It's when people try to force me to believe something that I get offended. They can debate me, and as long as they don't attack me for my beliefs or continually push their beliefs on me I'm fine.

Having said that, I apologize if it looks like I'm trying to force my beliefs on you, as I don't intend it that way.

 No need to apologize to me.  I'm not homosexual. ;-)

RicOlie_2 said:

Also, in countries in which Islam is the dominant religion, Christians and others tend to be killed for their beliefs all the time.

 I agree.  But keep in mind, for the most part I've been careful to say "in the US" as it's my general frame of reference.  Also, there's a big difference between some dope (me) on the internet badmouthing Christianity and someone killing Christians.

When I say "bashing Christians" is a first world problem, I'm referring to places where Christians are the majority and are doing a bit of whining, not where they are literally under attack for their beliefs.

TV's Frink said:

RicOlie_2 said:

When people try to convert me by attacking my beliefs, I get offended I guess, so I get your point. If they tell me politely that the Bible has mistakes in it and give me their reasons and respect me when I say "Nuh uh, I'm sticking with this," then I'm fine with that. It's when people try to force me to believe something that I get offended. They can debate me, and as long as they don't attack me for my beliefs or continually push their beliefs on me I'm fine.

Having said that, I apologize if it looks like I'm trying to force my beliefs on you, as I don't intend it that way.

 No need to apologize to me.  I'm not homosexual. ;-)

Glad to hear that I'm not creating any hard feelings between us. :)

I was apologizing because we have opposing beliefs on the topic and I was hoping I didn't sound like I thought you were a bad person for your beliefs, etc.

TV's Frink said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Also, in countries in which Islam is the dominant religion, Christians and others tend to be killed for their beliefs all the time.

 I agree.  But keep in mind, for the most part I've been careful to say "in the US" as it's my general frame of reference.  Also, there's a big difference between some dope (me) on the internet badmouthing Christianity and someone killing Christians.

When I say "bashing Christians" is a first world problem, I'm referring to places where Christians are the majority and are doing a bit of whining, not where they are literally under attack for their beliefs.

 Makes sense.

Leonardo said:

Warbler said:

Leonardo said:

Warbler said:

TV's Frink said:

There were comments on the previous page bemoaning the fact that it's ok to "bash" Christianity but not homosexuality.  That's what I was responding to.

 It is perfectly acceptable in society to bash Christianity. 

Yeah, look, you're comparing apples and cacti here. On one hand, you have the bashing of an organized religion, which I won't go into. On the other hand, you have the bashing of people, being what they are. The two do not equate.

for many being Christian, is what they are.

[my thoughts on this are censored because there's no way to write them without someone getting offended]

hmmm. 

Leonardo said:

Quick, name one person fired from a TV show for Christianity bashing.  

Can't do it?  Didn't think so.  

 I can think of at least one person who got banned from tv because of blasphemy. You can argue I live in a country that culturally is still in the dark ages, and you would be right.

could you please name this person?  link?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/8261932/Italian-Big-Brother-removes-contestants-for-blasphemy.html

 So this happened in Italy.   I was primarily talking about the US.