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Ask the member of the Latin Rite of the Roman Catholic Church AKA Interrogate the Catholic ;) — Page 10

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 (Edited)

Post Praetorian said:

TV's Frink said:

Someone once called me a weak atheist.

Ah, quite likely considered the loneliest of stances...

Were you always of the same mind as now?

 I had a brief flirtation with a bible study group and with a born again Christian girl, but I just was looking for friends and for a girlfriend.

Cut me some slack, I was only 14.

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Poor Ric.  My thread mostly gets Mormon-specific questions.  He gets stuck with the general Bible questions, like Noah and the flood, questions which could be addressed by any Christian, Jew, or Muslim. :(

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Well then, I'd only speak for myself, not for Catholics (which I am not), nor even Christians in general.  I believe that if the flood did take place, it was probably a local phenomenon.  But that's just me.

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 (Edited)

darth_ender said:

Well then, I'd only speak for myself, not for Catholics (which I am not), nor even Christians in general.  I believe that if the flood did take place, it was probably a local phenomenon.  But that's just me.

 That is also my stance. The word used in the book of Genesis can mean both "world" or "land," the latter implying that it extended from horizon to horizon and only looked like it covered the entire world from Noah's POV.

At Ur, there is a layer of flood deposit which shows that the city has been destroyed by flood at one time. Abraham came from Ur, so he may have brought the story of that flood with him when he left. Another theory is that since the Black Sea was once isolated, the flood may have been an event (probably caused by a big storm which flooded the area in a few days) which joined it to the Mediterranean. Towns have been discovered on the floor of the Black Sea, backing up this theory.

I do however believe it was a historical event of some kind, because the story is so widespread and so many similarities exist between the stories.

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That sounds feasible, good theory guys

 J

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Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

 I believe that God rewarded Abraham for his faithfulness to him, but that preceded Abraham's test of faith. God had already promised that Abraham would get an heir and that a great nation would come of him. Also, the key point in Abraham's test of faith was the test, not the willingness to kill. God would not have let Abraham kill his son, but wanted to give an example of faith to the world (not the contemporary world). Abraham loved God more than anything else, including his only son which God had given him and his wife as a gift.

If God had already rewarded Abraham's faith with the gift of a son, why might He have chosen to administer this further test?

How might one's image of one's father change should he make such an equal example of his faith?

I think God administered a further test so Abraham would continue to trust God and not be satisfied with his earthly blessings.

I highly doubt God would have done this if it would have ruined the father-son relationship between Abraham and Isaac. Isaac went along with it, demonstrating that he also had great faith in God, so it was a test for him as well which God knew they would both pass.

If God knew it would be passed, wherein may have existed the need for the test? Equally, is it more or less likely that one might gain greater trust in a father who might, at a random moment of time, demand a blood offering made up of a member that one might hold dear?

Further, is it not likely that the ordeal may have at the very least caused Isaac repeated nightmares as well as a certain reluctance to join his father on any further wilderness excursions?

Finally, how might an accurate assessment be made as to God's true concern regarding this particular father-son relationship while later actions seemingly show Him holding little regard for the numerous father-son relationships brought to a bloody end during the invasion of Canaan?

 I already answered your first question as I anticipated it in advance. The answer is that it was for our benefit, showing that if we trust God we will not come to harm. I can answer your questions based on my personal experience, but that may not have been applicable in that situation. I wasn't there, so I don't know what exactly happened. I think that if I had been in Isaac's position, based only on what we know from the story, I think I would my relationship with my father would have been shaken. However, it also depends on whether or not Isaac saw God/the angel who stopped Abraham from completing the sacrifice. If Isaac saw that, then he likely would have forgiven his father because he would have known that his father was doing God's will. If I were in the same situation and I saw the angel I believe I would have been able to do the same.

I don't know all of God's reasons for allowing genocide in the invasion of Canaan, but I trust that he knew what he was doing and did not cause more harm than would have been caused if he hadn't allowed that.

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Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

 1) Is it then your view that God chose to align Himself with Abraham because Abraham demonstrated a willingness to murder for God?

To clarify, was it not Abraham who appeared willing to murder Jacob in order to show obedience? If so, is such a level of obedience key to God later deciding which of his people might murder which other people (as in, who might possess the promised land by force and who might die in its defense)?

The reason God instructed the Israelites to kill the inhabitants of Canaan was because the Israelites had proven they weren't capable of living alongside other nations without falling into idolatry. God allowed it for Israel's benefit, not because those nations were evil (that was not the main reason, anyway).

 Is it possible that life might hold so little value to a loving god? If one's fate might fall to the disposition of one's neighbors is this likely to be a sign that justice is held in particularly high regard?

Further, if the Canaanite people might have proven to be the more faithful (as in, their religion appears to have been more persuasive to the Israelites than vice-versa), why might a loving god have chosen to reward them with destruction? In essence, why offer a promised land to a people of lesser devotion at the expense of a people of greater devotion?

I can't claim to know what God's logic was, but if those people ended up in heaven, then their lifespan on earth doesn't matter. If they ended up in hell, it's a different story, but they doubtlessly were headed that way anyway if that was the case.

Canaanite worship involved ritual prostitution and child sacrifice in many cases. God didn't want his people going down that path. The Canaanite religions were religions of pleasure for the most part (especially the sex worship part) and therefore it seemed very attractive compared to the strict Mosaic law.

How likely might one expect the arrival of any among the Canaanites into Heaven given the seemingly strong judgment upon them while still alive? Alternately, how pleased may have been expected the reactions among any of said Canaanites were they to have discovered themselves confronted by the possibility of a forced eternal existence with the same god who slew their families in such dramatic fashion?

Further, is it not somewhat difficult to comprehend the rationale that might cause a god of love to first command Abraham to sacrifice a child, while later exterminating an entire nation for allegedly following through with the same act?

To clarify, if the purpose of God's initial command to Abraham seemingly was to test him by determining his willingness to sacrificing that which he might hold most dear, would it not equally be considered that the sacrifices endured by the Canaanites might be of equal value in their apparent difficulty to carry out (hence the concept of sacrifice)? If so, could not a god of love have more simply resolved the error of their understandings by encouraging them to abandon the practice through a great act of love rather than one of unimaginable terror?

 Given the view of ancient peoples at the time, I think the Caananites would have just been sorry for what they did and be fine with spending their time in heaven. I don't really know if they did or didn't get to heaven, so I probably won't answer further questions about that. I just believe that God did whatever was the just thing to do.

I see the prevention of the sacrifice of Isaac as a sign that God does not allow child sacrifice. God stopped Abraham from completing the sacrifice, and therefore showed that he did not want such sacrifices (which other nations at the time performed regularly).

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Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

I think everything should be done for the glory of God (unless it has no moral consequence), so that doesn't leave much room for too much worship.

 Might the slaying of one's own son have a moral consequence?

 Since God told Abraham to do it, it would not, theoretically, have had moral consequence. It was, however, God's intention to stop Abraham from the beginning, and he knew the result beforehand. God would not have allowed Abraham to carry through with the sacrifice because of its immorality (just because he tested Abraham in that way doesn't mean that he was contradicting his own laws because of the fact that there was no intention to allow Abraham to follow through).

As to why God bothered if he knew the result beforehand: the test was for our benefit, to show that if we trust God then things will work out in the end.

Might then the butchering of women and male children and the enslavement of young female virgins for the purpose of forced sex cease to have a moral consequence if purportedly commanded by God (as evidenced in Numbers 31)?

 It is my understanding that Moses commanded the butchering, not God. Also, there is nothing said about forced sex, and the virgins may have been taken as wives (or not, I didn't see any mention of what happened to them), in which case they would have become part of the Israelite's religion and perhaps spared the fate of any Canaanites who went to hell. If that is the case, then I see it as an act of mercy.

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RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

If God knew it would be passed, wherein may have existed the need for the test? Equally, is it more or less likely that one might gain greater trust in a father who might, at a random moment of time, demand a blood offering made up of a member that one might hold dear?

Further, is it not likely that the ordeal may have at the very least caused Isaac repeated nightmares as well as a certain reluctance to join his father on any further wilderness excursions?

Finally, how might an accurate assessment be made as to God's true concern regarding this particular father-son relationship while later actions seemingly show Him holding little regard for the numerous father-son relationships brought to a bloody end during the invasion of Canaan?

 I already answered your first question as I anticipated it in advance.

Yes, I apologize for the duplication.

The answer is that it was for our benefit, showing that if we trust God we will not come to harm. I can answer your questions based on my personal experience, but that may not have been applicable in that situation. I wasn't there, so I don't know what exactly happened. I think that if I had been in Isaac's position, based only on what we know from the story, I think I would my relationship with my father would have been shaken. However, it also depends on whether or not Isaac saw God/the angel who stopped Abraham from completing the sacrifice. If Isaac saw that, then he likely would have forgiven his father because he would have known that his father was doing God's will. If I were in the same situation and I saw the angel I believe I would have been able to do the same.

Fair enough.

I don't know all of God's reasons for allowing genocide in the invasion of Canaan, but I trust that he knew what he was doing and did not cause more harm than would have been caused if he hadn't allowed that.

Ah, but would it not have been far more indicative that a loving deity of omnipotent might and infinite patience had been involved in the episode had all supporting evidence been equally consistent? Was it not Jesus who made claim that a tree might be determined by its fruits?

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

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Time

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

 1) Is it then your view that God chose to align Himself with Abraham because Abraham demonstrated a willingness to murder for God?

To clarify, was it not Abraham who appeared willing to murder Jacob in order to show obedience? If so, is such a level of obedience key to God later deciding which of his people might murder which other people (as in, who might possess the promised land by force and who might die in its defense)?

The reason God instructed the Israelites to kill the inhabitants of Canaan was because the Israelites had proven they weren't capable of living alongside other nations without falling into idolatry. God allowed it for Israel's benefit, not because those nations were evil (that was not the main reason, anyway).

 Is it possible that life might hold so little value to a loving god? If one's fate might fall to the disposition of one's neighbors is this likely to be a sign that justice is held in particularly high regard?

Further, if the Canaanite people might have proven to be the more faithful (as in, their religion appears to have been more persuasive to the Israelites than vice-versa), why might a loving god have chosen to reward them with destruction? In essence, why offer a promised land to a people of lesser devotion at the expense of a people of greater devotion?

I can't claim to know what God's logic was, but if those people ended up in heaven, then their lifespan on earth doesn't matter. If they ended up in hell, it's a different story, but they doubtlessly were headed that way anyway if that was the case.

Canaanite worship involved ritual prostitution and child sacrifice in many cases. God didn't want his people going down that path. The Canaanite religions were religions of pleasure for the most part (especially the sex worship part) and therefore it seemed very attractive compared to the strict Mosaic law.

How likely might one expect the arrival of any among the Canaanites into Heaven given the seemingly strong judgment upon them while still alive? Alternately, how pleased may have been expected the reactions among any of said Canaanites were they to have discovered themselves confronted by the possibility of a forced eternal existence with the same god who slew their families in such dramatic fashion?

Further, is it not somewhat difficult to comprehend the rationale that might cause a god of love to first command Abraham to sacrifice a child, while later exterminating an entire nation for allegedly following through with the same act?

To clarify, if the purpose of God's initial command to Abraham seemingly was to test him by determining his willingness to sacrificing that which he might hold most dear, would it not equally be considered that the sacrifices endured by the Canaanites might be of equal value in their apparent difficulty to carry out (hence the concept of sacrifice)? If so, could not a god of love have more simply resolved the error of their understandings by encouraging them to abandon the practice through a great act of love rather than one of unimaginable terror?

 Given the view of ancient peoples at the time, I think the Caananites would have just been sorry for what they did and be fine with spending their time in heaven. I don't really know if they did or didn't get to heaven, so I probably won't answer further questions about that. I just believe that God did whatever was the just thing to do.

I see the prevention of the sacrifice of Isaac as a sign that God does not allow child sacrifice. God stopped Abraham from completing the sacrifice, and therefore showed that he did not want such sacrifices (which other nations at the time performed regularly).

 Having multiple options for halting said sacrifices, why might one consider God seemingly chose the most brutal?

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

Author
Time

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

I think everything should be done for the glory of God (unless it has no moral consequence), so that doesn't leave much room for too much worship.

 Might the slaying of one's own son have a moral consequence?

 Since God told Abraham to do it, it would not, theoretically, have had moral consequence. It was, however, God's intention to stop Abraham from the beginning, and he knew the result beforehand. God would not have allowed Abraham to carry through with the sacrifice because of its immorality (just because he tested Abraham in that way doesn't mean that he was contradicting his own laws because of the fact that there was no intention to allow Abraham to follow through).

As to why God bothered if he knew the result beforehand: the test was for our benefit, to show that if we trust God then things will work out in the end.

Might then the butchering of women and male children and the enslavement of young female virgins for the purpose of forced sex cease to have a moral consequence if purportedly commanded by God (as evidenced in Numbers 31)?

 It is my understanding that Moses commanded the butchering, not God.

"{The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites"They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8"

14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."}"

If God did not provide in the above the specific details for the means by which the Midians were to be dealt with, where might be found His countermand? Specifically, where might the displeasure of God over the corruption of His commands be in evidence?

Also, there is nothing said about forced sex, and the virgins may have been taken as wives (or not, I didn't see any mention of what happened to them), in which case they would have become part of the Israelite's religion and perhaps spared the fate of any Canaanites who went to hell. If that is the case, then I see it as an act of mercy.

Essentially, what alternate purpose might have served the command to save for themselves every female virgin from the campaign? How different may have been the forcing of marriage upon a young nubile--who may have recently witnessed the butchering of her mother by the very soldier now set to claim her as bride--from that of outright rape? Was her permission sought in the matter?

Finally, is it your view that a forced conversion (perhaps under pain of death) might be preferable to allowing a dissenting individual the possibility of stumbling into Hell?

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

Author
Time

TV's Frink said:

Post Praetorian said:

TV's Frink said:

Someone once called me a weak atheist.

Ah, quite likely considered the loneliest of stances...

Were you always of the same mind as now?

 I had a brief flirtation with a bible study group and with a born again Christian girl, but I just was looking for friends and for a girlfriend.

Cut me some slack, I was only 14.

May it then be assumed that you were not raised in any form of faith?

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

Author
Time

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

If God knew it would be passed, wherein may have existed the need for the test? Equally, is it more or less likely that one might gain greater trust in a father who might, at a random moment of time, demand a blood offering made up of a member that one might hold dear?

Further, is it not likely that the ordeal may have at the very least caused Isaac repeated nightmares as well as a certain reluctance to join his father on any further wilderness excursions?

Finally, how might an accurate assessment be made as to God's true concern regarding this particular father-son relationship while later actions seemingly show Him holding little regard for the numerous father-son relationships brought to a bloody end during the invasion of Canaan?

 I already answered your first question as I anticipated it in advance.

Yes, I apologize for the duplication.

The answer is that it was for our benefit, showing that if we trust God we will not come to harm. I can answer your questions based on my personal experience, but that may not have been applicable in that situation. I wasn't there, so I don't know what exactly happened. I think that if I had been in Isaac's position, based only on what we know from the story, I think I would my relationship with my father would have been shaken. However, it also depends on whether or not Isaac saw God/the angel who stopped Abraham from completing the sacrifice. If Isaac saw that, then he likely would have forgiven his father because he would have known that his father was doing God's will. If I were in the same situation and I saw the angel I believe I would have been able to do the same.

Fair enough.

I don't know all of God's reasons for allowing genocide in the invasion of Canaan, but I trust that he knew what he was doing and did not cause more harm than would have been caused if he hadn't allowed that.

Ah, but would it not have been far more indicative that a loving deity of omnipotent might and infinite patience had been involved in the episode had all supporting evidence been equally consistent? Was it not Jesus who made claim that a tree might be determined by its fruits?

 Perhaps, but since I view the fruits (so far) as being made manifest in the form of my Church, I think that the fruits have been good, and are getting better (or will at least get better in the future).

Author
Time

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

 1) Is it then your view that God chose to align Himself with Abraham because Abraham demonstrated a willingness to murder for God?

To clarify, was it not Abraham who appeared willing to murder Jacob in order to show obedience? If so, is such a level of obedience key to God later deciding which of his people might murder which other people (as in, who might possess the promised land by force and who might die in its defense)?

The reason God instructed the Israelites to kill the inhabitants of Canaan was because the Israelites had proven they weren't capable of living alongside other nations without falling into idolatry. God allowed it for Israel's benefit, not because those nations were evil (that was not the main reason, anyway).

 Is it possible that life might hold so little value to a loving god? If one's fate might fall to the disposition of one's neighbors is this likely to be a sign that justice is held in particularly high regard?

Further, if the Canaanite people might have proven to be the more faithful (as in, their religion appears to have been more persuasive to the Israelites than vice-versa), why might a loving god have chosen to reward them with destruction? In essence, why offer a promised land to a people of lesser devotion at the expense of a people of greater devotion?

I can't claim to know what God's logic was, but if those people ended up in heaven, then their lifespan on earth doesn't matter. If they ended up in hell, it's a different story, but they doubtlessly were headed that way anyway if that was the case.

Canaanite worship involved ritual prostitution and child sacrifice in many cases. God didn't want his people going down that path. The Canaanite religions were religions of pleasure for the most part (especially the sex worship part) and therefore it seemed very attractive compared to the strict Mosaic law.

How likely might one expect the arrival of any among the Canaanites into Heaven given the seemingly strong judgment upon them while still alive? Alternately, how pleased may have been expected the reactions among any of said Canaanites were they to have discovered themselves confronted by the possibility of a forced eternal existence with the same god who slew their families in such dramatic fashion?

Further, is it not somewhat difficult to comprehend the rationale that might cause a god of love to first command Abraham to sacrifice a child, while later exterminating an entire nation for allegedly following through with the same act?

To clarify, if the purpose of God's initial command to Abraham seemingly was to test him by determining his willingness to sacrificing that which he might hold most dear, would it not equally be considered that the sacrifices endured by the Canaanites might be of equal value in their apparent difficulty to carry out (hence the concept of sacrifice)? If so, could not a god of love have more simply resolved the error of their understandings by encouraging them to abandon the practice through a great act of love rather than one of unimaginable terror?

 Given the view of ancient peoples at the time, I think the Caananites would have just been sorry for what they did and be fine with spending their time in heaven. I don't really know if they did or didn't get to heaven, so I probably won't answer further questions about that. I just believe that God did whatever was the just thing to do.

I see the prevention of the sacrifice of Isaac as a sign that God does not allow child sacrifice. God stopped Abraham from completing the sacrifice, and therefore showed that he did not want such sacrifices (which other nations at the time performed regularly).

 Having multiple options for halting said sacrifices, why might one consider God seemingly chose the most brutal?

 The most brutal? Well, what would you have done instead?

Remember that this was not the only lesson God gave with his command to sacrifice Isaac and in the end his prevention of the sacrifice.

Author
Time

Post Praetorian said:

TV's Frink said:

Post Praetorian said:

TV's Frink said:

Someone once called me a weak atheist.

Ah, quite likely considered the loneliest of stances...

Were you always of the same mind as now?

 I had a brief flirtation with a bible study group and with a born again Christian girl, but I just was looking for friends and for a girlfriend.

Cut me some slack, I was only 14.

May it then be assumed that you were not raised in any form of faith?

 Sort of.

Author
Time

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

If God knew it would be passed, wherein may have existed the need for the test? Equally, is it more or less likely that one might gain greater trust in a father who might, at a random moment of time, demand a blood offering made up of a member that one might hold dear?

Further, is it not likely that the ordeal may have at the very least caused Isaac repeated nightmares as well as a certain reluctance to join his father on any further wilderness excursions?

Finally, how might an accurate assessment be made as to God's true concern regarding this particular father-son relationship while later actions seemingly show Him holding little regard for the numerous father-son relationships brought to a bloody end during the invasion of Canaan?

 I already answered your first question as I anticipated it in advance.

Yes, I apologize for the duplication.

The answer is that it was for our benefit, showing that if we trust God we will not come to harm. I can answer your questions based on my personal experience, but that may not have been applicable in that situation. I wasn't there, so I don't know what exactly happened. I think that if I had been in Isaac's position, based only on what we know from the story, I think I would my relationship with my father would have been shaken. However, it also depends on whether or not Isaac saw God/the angel who stopped Abraham from completing the sacrifice. If Isaac saw that, then he likely would have forgiven his father because he would have known that his father was doing God's will. If I were in the same situation and I saw the angel I believe I would have been able to do the same.

Fair enough.

I don't know all of God's reasons for allowing genocide in the invasion of Canaan, but I trust that he knew what he was doing and did not cause more harm than would have been caused if he hadn't allowed that.

Ah, but would it not have been far more indicative that a loving deity of omnipotent might and infinite patience had been involved in the episode had all supporting evidence been equally consistent? Was it not Jesus who made claim that a tree might be determined by its fruits?

 Perhaps, but since I view the fruits (so far) as being made manifest in the form of my Church, I think that the fruits have been good, and are getting better (or will at least get better in the future).

 OK

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

Author
Time

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

The reason God instructed the Israelites to kill the inhabitants of Canaan was because the Israelites had proven they weren't capable of living alongside other nations without falling into idolatry. God allowed it for Israel's benefit, not because those nations were evil (that was not the main reason, anyway).

 Is it possible that life might hold so little value to a loving god? If one's fate might fall to the disposition of one's neighbors is this likely to be a sign that justice is held in particularly high regard?

Further, if the Canaanite people might have proven to be the more faithful (as in, their religion appears to have been more persuasive to the Israelites than vice-versa), why might a loving god have chosen to reward them with destruction? In essence, why offer a promised land to a people of lesser devotion at the expense of a people of greater devotion?

I can't claim to know what God's logic was, but if those people ended up in heaven, then their lifespan on earth doesn't matter. If they ended up in hell, it's a different story, but they doubtlessly were headed that way anyway if that was the case.

Canaanite worship involved ritual prostitution and child sacrifice in many cases. God didn't want his people going down that path. The Canaanite religions were religions of pleasure for the most part (especially the sex worship part) and therefore it seemed very attractive compared to the strict Mosaic law.

How likely might one expect the arrival of any among the Canaanites into Heaven given the seemingly strong judgment upon them while still alive? Alternately, how pleased may have been expected the reactions among any of said Canaanites were they to have discovered themselves confronted by the possibility of a forced eternal existence with the same god who slew their families in such dramatic fashion?

Further, is it not somewhat difficult to comprehend the rationale that might cause a god of love to first command Abraham to sacrifice a child, while later exterminating an entire nation for allegedly following through with the same act?

To clarify, if the purpose of God's initial command to Abraham seemingly was to test him by determining his willingness to sacrificing that which he might hold most dear, would it not equally be considered that the sacrifices endured by the Canaanites might be of equal value in their apparent difficulty to carry out (hence the concept of sacrifice)? If so, could not a god of love have more simply resolved the error of their understandings by encouraging them to abandon the practice through a great act of love rather than one of unimaginable terror?

 Given the view of ancient peoples at the time, I think the Caananites would have just been sorry for what they did and be fine with spending their time in heaven. I don't really know if they did or didn't get to heaven, so I probably won't answer further questions about that. I just believe that God did whatever was the just thing to do.

I see the prevention of the sacrifice of Isaac as a sign that God does not allow child sacrifice. God stopped Abraham from completing the sacrifice, and therefore showed that he did not want such sacrifices (which other nations at the time performed regularly).

 Having multiple options for halting said sacrifices, why might one consider God seemingly chose the most brutal?

 The most brutal? Well, what would you have done instead?

Remember that this was not the only lesson God gave with his command to sacrifice Isaac and in the end his prevention of the sacrifice.

How might I, a mere mortal, instruct an omnipotent deity?

Perhaps one consideration might I be of sufficient boldness to suggest:

Were God to have rewarded only those who refused to sacrifice children would not sufficient evidence have slowly accrued to compel others to behave in as like a manner? To clarify, if a given farmer were to see his crops grow visibly stronger the closer he mirrored the commandments of God would not a suspicion grow that he was certainly on the correct path?

For is it not reasonable to assume that the Canaanites did not willfully sacrifice children for the pure pleasure of so doing, but more due to an errant belief that it was the will of God? If so, could not God have caused a storm with sufficient rain to dampen out each sacrificial occurrence while bestowing more benevolent weather during times when the practice was avoided? Would not such a harmless pattern have proven sufficient?

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

Author
Time

TV's Frink said:

Post Praetorian said:

TV's Frink said:

Post Praetorian said:

TV's Frink said:

Someone once called me a weak atheist.

Ah, quite likely considered the loneliest of stances...

Were you always of the same mind as now?

 I had a brief flirtation with a bible study group and with a born again Christian girl, but I just was looking for friends and for a girlfriend.

Cut me some slack, I was only 14.

May it then be assumed that you were not raised in any form of faith?

 Sort of.

Neither parent religious? If not, what was your view of those possessed of religious fervor? Did the concept hold any appeal? 

As of now, is it your view that the world as a whole might be a better or poorer place without religion? Or might it merely depend on the religion in question?

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

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Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

I think everything should be done for the glory of God (unless it has no moral consequence), so that doesn't leave much room for too much worship.

 Might the slaying of one's own son have a moral consequence?

 Since God told Abraham to do it, it would not, theoretically, have had moral consequence. It was, however, God's intention to stop Abraham from the beginning, and he knew the result beforehand. God would not have allowed Abraham to carry through with the sacrifice because of its immorality (just because he tested Abraham in that way doesn't mean that he was contradicting his own laws because of the fact that there was no intention to allow Abraham to follow through).

As to why God bothered if he knew the result beforehand: the test was for our benefit, to show that if we trust God then things will work out in the end.

Might then the butchering of women and male children and the enslavement of young female virgins for the purpose of forced sex cease to have a moral consequence if purportedly commanded by God (as evidenced in Numbers 31)?

 It is my understanding that Moses commanded the butchering, not God.

"{The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites"They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8"

14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."}"

If God did not provide in the above the specific details for the means by which the Midians were to be dealt with, where might be found His countermand? Specifically, where might the displeasure of God over the corruption of His commands be in evidence?

This is one I can't answer. If I find an answer I will post it, but now that I've had a bit more time to look at this chapter, I can see where the seeming inconsistencies come in. Well, you stumped me...I could give a speculative answer, but it likely wouldn't be satisfactory.

That isn't to say that there is no answer, but if there is, I don't know it.

I appreciate all your questions, they were very thoughtful and respectful. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm any match for you in a debate, so you're coming close to backing me into all sorts of corners and I don't think I will be able to satisfy your answers myself.

Also, there is nothing said about forced sex, and the virgins may have been taken as wives (or not, I didn't see any mention of what happened to them), in which case they would have become part of the Israelite's religion and perhaps spared the fate of any Canaanites who went to hell. If that is the case, then I see it as an act of mercy.

Essentially, what alternate purpose might have served the command to save for themselves every female virgin from the campaign? How different may have been the forcing of marriage upon a young nubile--who may have recently witnessed the butchering of her mother by the very soldier now set to claim her as bride--from that of outright rape? Was her permission sought in the matter?

You have a point. :)

Finally, is it your view that a forced conversion (perhaps under pain of death) might be preferable to allowing a dissenting individual the possibility of stumbling into Hell?

 Because I believe in free will, I don't think anyone should be forced to do or believe something. I also believe it is impossible to actually force someone into a true conversion, but some of them may have made such a conversion and their descendants would have belonged to that religion.

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 (Edited)

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

The reason God instructed the Israelites to kill the inhabitants of Canaan was because the Israelites had proven they weren't capable of living alongside other nations without falling into idolatry. God allowed it for Israel's benefit, not because those nations were evil (that was not the main reason, anyway).

 Is it possible that life might hold so little value to a loving god? If one's fate might fall to the disposition of one's neighbors is this likely to be a sign that justice is held in particularly high regard?

Further, if the Canaanite people might have proven to be the more faithful (as in, their religion appears to have been more persuasive to the Israelites than vice-versa), why might a loving god have chosen to reward them with destruction? In essence, why offer a promised land to a people of lesser devotion at the expense of a people of greater devotion?

I can't claim to know what God's logic was, but if those people ended up in heaven, then their lifespan on earth doesn't matter. If they ended up in hell, it's a different story, but they doubtlessly were headed that way anyway if that was the case.

Canaanite worship involved ritual prostitution and child sacrifice in many cases. God didn't want his people going down that path. The Canaanite religions were religions of pleasure for the most part (especially the sex worship part) and therefore it seemed very attractive compared to the strict Mosaic law.

How likely might one expect the arrival of any among the Canaanites into Heaven given the seemingly strong judgment upon them while still alive? Alternately, how pleased may have been expected the reactions among any of said Canaanites were they to have discovered themselves confronted by the possibility of a forced eternal existence with the same god who slew their families in such dramatic fashion?

Further, is it not somewhat difficult to comprehend the rationale that might cause a god of love to first command Abraham to sacrifice a child, while later exterminating an entire nation for allegedly following through with the same act?

To clarify, if the purpose of God's initial command to Abraham seemingly was to test him by determining his willingness to sacrificing that which he might hold most dear, would it not equally be considered that the sacrifices endured by the Canaanites might be of equal value in their apparent difficulty to carry out (hence the concept of sacrifice)? If so, could not a god of love have more simply resolved the error of their understandings by encouraging them to abandon the practice through a great act of love rather than one of unimaginable terror?

 Given the view of ancient peoples at the time, I think the Caananites would have just been sorry for what they did and be fine with spending their time in heaven. I don't really know if they did or didn't get to heaven, so I probably won't answer further questions about that. I just believe that God did whatever was the just thing to do.

I see the prevention of the sacrifice of Isaac as a sign that God does not allow child sacrifice. God stopped Abraham from completing the sacrifice, and therefore showed that he did not want such sacrifices (which other nations at the time performed regularly).

 Having multiple options for halting said sacrifices, why might one consider God seemingly chose the most brutal?

 The most brutal? Well, what would you have done instead?

Remember that this was not the only lesson God gave with his command to sacrifice Isaac and in the end his prevention of the sacrifice.

How might I, a mere mortal, instruct an omnipotent deity?

You catch on pretty quick! ;)

Perhaps one consideration might I be of sufficient boldness to suggest:

Were God to have rewarded only those who refused to sacrifice children would not sufficient evidence have slowly accrued to compel others to behave in as like a manner? To clarify, if a given farmer were to see his crops grow visibly stronger the closer he mirrored the commandments of God would not a suspicion grow that he was certainly on the correct path?

For is it not reasonable to assume that the Canaanites did not willfully sacrifice children for the pure pleasure of so doing, but more due to an errant belief that it was the will of God? If so, could not God have caused a storm with sufficient rain to dampen out each sacrificial occurrence while bestowing more benevolent weather during times when the practice was avoided? Would not such a harmless pattern have proven sufficient?

 Arguably, this is what happened most of the time. I give you the examples of:

the ten plagues (Exodus 7:14-11:10),
the destruction of the Egyptian army and resulting deliverance of the Israelites from slavery (Exodus 14:23-31),
the Battle of Amalek (Exodus 17:8-13),
the Israelites being forced to wander in the desert because they didn't have enough faith that God would be able to gain them possession of the promised land (Numbers 14:26-35) and their defeat at the hands of the Amalekites and Canaanites because they attacked in direct disobedience of God (Numbers 14:44-45),
the sin of Moses and Aaron resulting in them being banned from entering the promised land (Numbers 20:6b-12),
the punishment of the snakes in the desert (Numbers 21:5-6) and the deliverance from the snakes upon the Israelites' repentance (Numbers 21:6-9),
the defeat of Sihon (Deuteronomy 2:31-34) and Og (Deuteronomy 3:1-7),
Deuteronomy 4 in which the advantages of fidelity to God are discussed,
Deuteronomy 7:12-26 in which God promises to bless the Israelites if they obey him,
several other chapters and verses in Deuteronomy in which promises are made by God and the past examples of the fulfillment of those promises are given,
the fall of Jericho (Joshua 6:15-21),
the defeat of the Israelites at Ai due to disobedience (Joshua 7:1-5),
the capture of Ai (Joshua 8:1-23),
another of Joshua's victories (Joshua 10:7-11),
other victories and conquests described in the book of Joshua,
the results of the infidelities of the Israelites in the land of Canaan (Judges 2),
the story of Samson (Judges 14-16),
the Philistine's troubles (Bubonic plague, one of their gods falling on the floor and breaking two days in a row) during the time they possessed the Ark of the Covenant (1 Samuel 5),
the defeat of the Philistines (1 Samuel 7:10-14 and again at 1 Samuel 14:20-23 as well as 2 Samuel 5:19-25),
Saul's loss of kingship (1 Samuel 15:10-23),
the story of David and Goliath (1 Samuel 17:41-51),
David's conquests (listed in 2 Samuel 8:1-14),
the defeat of the Ammonites and Arameans (2 Samuel 10:13-19),
the drought of Elijah attributed to Ahab's actions (it is announced in 1 Kings 17:1),
the cure of Naaman (2 Kings 5:1-15),

I only gave significant examples from the first quarter of the Bible. Take from it what you will, but you can see that it can easily be argued that God used that plan of action and it did result in some conversions and repentances.

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RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

 The most brutal? Well, what would you have done instead?

Remember that this was not the only lesson God gave with his command to sacrifice Isaac and in the end his prevention of the sacrifice.

How might I, a mere mortal, instruct an omnipotent deity?

You catch on pretty quick! ;)

Perhaps one consideration might I be of sufficient boldness to suggest:

Were God to have rewarded only those who refused to sacrifice children would not sufficient evidence have slowly accrued to compel others to behave in as like a manner? To clarify, if a given farmer were to see his crops grow visibly stronger the closer he mirrored the commandments of God would not a suspicion grow that he was certainly on the correct path?

For is it not reasonable to assume that the Canaanites did not willfully sacrifice children for the pure pleasure of so doing, but more due to an errant belief that it was the will of God? If so, could not God have caused a storm with sufficient rain to dampen out each sacrificial occurrence while bestowing more benevolent weather during times when the practice was avoided? Would not such a harmless pattern have proven sufficient?

 Arguably, this is what happened most of the time. I give you the examples of:

the ten plagues (Exodus 7:14-11:10),

Were these not too obscure for the understanding of the general populace, but aimed primarily at proving the might of God relative to the power of Pharaoh's wizards? Indeed, were not these wizards capable of emulating most of these in turn? Ultimately was not the final plague one of death claiming the lives of countless innocents who had taken no previous role in the conflict?

the destruction of the Egyptian army and resulting deliverance of the Israelites from slavery (Exodus 14:23-31),
the Battle of Amalek (Exodus 17:8-13),
the Israelites being forced to wander in the desert because they didn't have enough faith that God would be able to gain them possession of the promised land (Numbers 14:26-35) and their defeat at the hands of the Amalekites and Canaanites because they attacked in direct disobedience of God (Numbers 14:44-45),
the sin of Moses and Aaron resulting in them being banned from entering the promised land (Numbers 20:6b-12),
the punishment of the snakes in the desert (Numbers 21:5-6) and the deliverance from the snakes upon the Israelites' repentance (Numbers 21:6-9),
the defeat of Sihon (Deuteronomy 2:31-34) and Og (Deuteronomy 3:1-7),
Deuteronomy 4 in which the advantages of fidelity to God are discussed,
Deuteronomy 7:12-26 in which God promises to bless the Israelites if they obey him,
several other chapters and verses in Deuteronomy in which promises are made by God and the past examples of the fulfillment of those promises are given,
the fall of Jericho (Joshua 6:15-21),
the defeat of the Israelites at Ai due to disobedience (Joshua 7:1-5),
the capture of Ai (Joshua 8:1-23),
another of Joshua's victories (Joshua 10:7-11),
other victories and conquests described in the book of Joshua,
the results of the infidelities of the Israelites in the land of Canaan (Judges 2),
the story of Samson (Judges 14-16),
the Philistine's troubles (Bubonic plague, one of their gods falling on the floor and breaking two days in a row) during the time they possessed the Ark of the Covenant (1 Samuel 5),
the defeat of the Philistines (1 Samuel 7:10-14 and again at 1 Samuel 14:20-23 as well as 2 Samuel 5:19-25),
Saul's loss of kingship (1 Samuel 15:10-23),
the story of David and Goliath (1 Samuel 17:41-51),
David's conquests (listed in 2 Samuel 8:1-14),
the defeat of the Ammonites and Arameans (2 Samuel 10:13-19),
the drought of Elijah attributed to Ahab's actions (it is announced in 1 Kings 17:1),
the cure of Naaman (2 Kings 5:1-15),

I only gave significant examples from the first quarter of the Bible. Take from it what you will, but you can see that it can easily be argued that God used that plan of action and it did result in some conversions and repentances.

Do not death, destruction, and misery seemingly comprise the majority of these very numerous examples? Wherein might one discover primarily positive reinforcement?

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

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RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

 It is my understanding that Moses commanded the butchering, not God.

"{The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites"They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8"

14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man."}"

If God did not provide in the above the specific details for the means by which the Midians were to be dealt with, where might be found His countermand? Specifically, where might the displeasure of God over the corruption of His commands be in evidence?

This is one I can't answer. If I find an answer I will post it, but now that I've had a bit more time to look at this chapter, I can see where the seeming inconsistencies come in. Well, you stumped me...I could give a speculative answer, but it likely wouldn't be satisfactory.

That isn't to say that there is no answer, but if there is, I don't know it.

I appreciate all your questions, they were very thoughtful and respectful. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm any match for you in a debate, so you're coming close to backing me into all sorts of corners and I don't think I will be able to satisfy your answers myself.

Also, there is nothing said about forced sex, and the virgins may have been taken as wives (or not, I didn't see any mention of what happened to them), in which case they would have become part of the Israelite's religion and perhaps spared the fate of any Canaanites who went to hell. If that is the case, then I see it as an act of mercy.

Essentially, what alternate purpose might have served the command to save for themselves every female virgin from the campaign? How different may have been the forcing of marriage upon a young nubile--who may have recently witnessed the butchering of her mother by the very soldier now set to claim her as bride--from that of outright rape? Was her permission sought in the matter?

You have a point. :)

Finally, is it your view that a forced conversion (perhaps under pain of death) might be preferable to allowing a dissenting individual the possibility of stumbling into Hell?

 Because I believe in free will, I don't think anyone should be forced to do or believe something. I also believe it is impossible to actually force someone into a true conversion, but some of them may have made such a conversion and their descendants would have belonged to that religion.

Your humility and candor do you great credit. I have gained in insight through this discussion...surely if all Catholics might be as honest and forthright many a misunderstanding might be avoided!

I was once…but now I’m not… Further: zyzzogeton

“It wasn’t the flood that destroyed the pantry…”

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Warbler said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Bingowings said:

Lucifer for example is literally the Morning Star (the Planet Venus) the light of which is banished by the Sun. It was a Roman pagan religious ornament woven into the early Christian church like the whole Osiris worship bag you guys have over Mary/Diana/Ishtar.

 Things like this make me wonder if you know what you are talking about. Christians have never worshiped Mary. We pray to her to ask her to pray for us as is embedded in the Hail Mary ("pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"). It's very similar to asking someone on earth to pray for you. It isn't worship.

 See Bingo here is why I question your research.  If your research was really complete and non-biased you'd understand how the Catholics view Mary without RicOlie_2 having to explain to you.

Also Bingo, not all Christians view Mary the way Catholics do.

 But he's completely on the money about Lucifer being a reference to the planet Venus (yes, even in Isaiah) and not some supernatural boogyman.

“Yes, it speaks of the trinity; casting light at the sun with its wandering eye”

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Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

Post Praetorian said:

RicOlie_2 said:

 The most brutal? Well, what would you have done instead?

Remember that this was not the only lesson God gave with his command to sacrifice Isaac and in the end his prevention of the sacrifice.

How might I, a mere mortal, instruct an omnipotent deity?

You catch on pretty quick! ;)

Perhaps one consideration might I be of sufficient boldness to suggest:

Were God to have rewarded only those who refused to sacrifice children would not sufficient evidence have slowly accrued to compel others to behave in as like a manner? To clarify, if a given farmer were to see his crops grow visibly stronger the closer he mirrored the commandments of God would not a suspicion grow that he was certainly on the correct path?

For is it not reasonable to assume that the Canaanites did not willfully sacrifice children for the pure pleasure of so doing, but more due to an errant belief that it was the will of God? If so, could not God have caused a storm with sufficient rain to dampen out each sacrificial occurrence while bestowing more benevolent weather during times when the practice was avoided? Would not such a harmless pattern have proven sufficient?

 Arguably, this is what happened most of the time. I give you the examples of:

the ten plagues (Exodus 7:14-11:10),

Were these not too obscure for the understanding of the general populace, but aimed primarily at proving the might of God relative to the power of Pharaoh's wizards? Indeed, were not these wizards capable of emulating most of these in turn? Ultimately was not the final plague one of death claiming the lives of countless innocents who had taken no previous role in the conflict?

If those who died were truly innocent, then they went to heaven, so that probably worked out well for them in the end. The wizards were not able to replicate only the first two plagues.

the destruction of the Egyptian army and resulting deliverance of the Israelites from slavery (Exodus 14:23-31),
the Battle of Amalek (Exodus 17:8-13),
the Israelites being forced to wander in the desert because they didn't have enough faith that God would be able to gain them possession of the promised land (Numbers 14:26-35) and their defeat at the hands of the Amalekites and Canaanites because they attacked in direct disobedience of God (Numbers 14:44-45),
the sin of Moses and Aaron resulting in them being banned from entering the promised land (Numbers 20:6b-12),
the punishment of the snakes in the desert (Numbers 21:5-6) and the deliverance from the snakes upon the Israelites' repentance (Numbers 21:6-9),
the defeat of Sihon (Deuteronomy 2:31-34) and Og (Deuteronomy 3:1-7),
Deuteronomy 4 in which the advantages of fidelity to God are discussed,
Deuteronomy 7:12-26 in which God promises to bless the Israelites if they obey him,
several other chapters and verses in Deuteronomy in which promises are made by God and the past examples of the fulfillment of those promises are given,
the fall of Jericho (Joshua 6:15-21),
the defeat of the Israelites at Ai due to disobedience (Joshua 7:1-5),
the capture of Ai (Joshua 8:1-23),
another of Joshua's victories (Joshua 10:7-11),
other victories and conquests described in the book of Joshua,
the results of the infidelities of the Israelites in the land of Canaan (Judges 2),
the story of Samson (Judges 14-16),
the Philistine's troubles (Bubonic plague, one of their gods falling on the floor and breaking two days in a row) during the time they possessed the Ark of the Covenant (1 Samuel 5),
the defeat of the Philistines (1 Samuel 7:10-14 and again at 1 Samuel 14:20-23 as well as 2 Samuel 5:19-25),
Saul's loss of kingship (1 Samuel 15:10-23),
the story of David and Goliath (1 Samuel 17:41-51),
David's conquests (listed in 2 Samuel 8:1-14),
the defeat of the Ammonites and Arameans (2 Samuel 10:13-19),
the drought of Elijah attributed to Ahab's actions (it is announced in 1 Kings 17:1),
the cure of Naaman (2 Kings 5:1-15),

I only gave significant examples from the first quarter of the Bible. Take from it what you will, but you can see that it can easily be argued that God used that plan of action and it did result in some conversions and repentances.

Do not death, destruction, and misery seemingly comprise the majority of these very numerous examples? Wherein might one discover primarily positive reinforcement?

RicOlie_2 said:

Deuteronomy 4 in which the advantages of fidelity to God are discussed,

Deuteronomy 7:12-26 in which God promises to bless the Israelites if they obey him,

 God promised good things, and they likely happened, but the Biblical authors didn't mention many of these since more positive and subtle things would, for the most part, not come in the form of events.