Wearing Jedi robes while hiding out on a backwater planet makes perfect sense. ;)
Obi Wan actually wore black in an issue of the Marvel comic set during the Old Republic, as did Luke at one point. That could have influenced the ROTJ look.
Where were you in '77?
Mrebo said:
I would however point out that Anakin was from Tatooine. That Yoda wears hermit clothes while living as a hermit doesn't inform very much. And what of Luke wearing all black in ROTJ while asserting his Jedi-hood? If it were so established, wouldn't they have stuck him in "Jedi robes"?
LUKE
But I need your help. I've come back to complete the training.
YODA
No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need.
Yoda sighs, and lies back on his bed.
LUKE
Then I am a Jedi?
YODA (shakes his head)
Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.
He's not a Jedi until the end of the film.
This is one of those instances where the phrase "for all intents and purposes" is appropriate. The film never explains or hints at the fundamental difference within Luke before the confrontation with his father and after. The real transformation happens in Vader.
And frankly, I wouldn't be half shocked if Yoda told Luke that to give him extra incentive. It may have had nothing to do with really becoming a Jedi.
What did Luke accomplish? Resisting the dark side? He already did that in ESB when he faced death instead of giving in. Sure, he was pivotal in redeeming his father, but so? Does every apprentice have an evil father he has to redeem before earning the official Jedi merit badge?
YODA: "You must confront Vader. Then a Jedi will you be. Because. . . uhm. . . reasons."
A few extra lines of dialogue or exposition on the Jedi training traditions could have fixed this.
This aspect of ROTJ isn't necessarily what I would call poor writing, but it is lazy. Like most of the film. Aside from the special effects.
Does that remind you of a certain other trilogy?
SilverWook said:
Wearing Jedi robes while hiding out on a backwater planet makes perfect sense. ;)
Obi Wan actually wore black in an issue of the Marvel comic set during the Old Republic, as did Luke at one point. That could have influenced the ROTJ look.
Obi-Wan as a hard, seasoned general dressed in black is awesome.
Maybe if Marvel had kept the rights we would've seen a weird cross-over: Obi-Wan VS The Punisher. Weird thought, but awesome. =P
Reegar said:
And frankly, I wouldn't be half shocked if Yoda told Luke that to give him extra incentive. It may have had nothing to do with really becoming a Jedi.
What did Luke accomplish? Resisting the dark side? He already did that in ESB when he faced death instead of giving in. Sure, he was pivotal in redeeming his father, but so? Does every apprentice have an evil father he has to redeem before earning the official Jedi merit badge?
YODA: "You must confront Vader. Then a Jedi will you be. Because. . . uhm. . . reasons."
A few extra lines of dialogue or exposition on the Jedi training traditions could have fixed this.
This aspect of ROTJ isn't necessarily what I would call poor writing, but it is lazy. Like most of the film. Aside from the special effects.
Does that remind you of a certain other trilogy?
That line would've made more sense if it was given to Obi-Wan. Vader was his friend, after all (not that you can tell that from watching a certain other trilogy), so it's not entirely irrational for him to try to bring him back. Not ideal, but still much more fitting.
Luke facing Vader because Jedi training stuff doesn't really make much sense to me. He already did face him once and passed the test as you pointed out and if it was a typical Jedi ritual they'd probably have to breed their own Sith in order to have them readily available. Or capture them somehow. It gets kind of funny if you think about it.
I also have issues with the Emperor tempting Luke among tons of other things, but then again this might've been inteded as a pay-off to the Dagobah scene. Except there already kind of was one. Man, the RotJ script was a mess.
We are on the exact same page, my friend.
I think this is actually a major reason that in the prequels the Jedi talk about a set of "trials" that have to be faced before your Jedi-hood is official. Training alone isn't enough for Jedi status. I think that was put in the prequels to offer the explanation that Return of the Jedi was lacking for why Luke had to confront Vader. Since the Jedi have been disbanded in Luke's time, the official trials that existed in the Old Republic days aren't available to him anymore, so his circumstances have to be used to create a custom set of trials for him.
Mind you, I'm not saying this explains away what you guys have said about Return of the Jedi, since I hate the prequels and don't think that the original movies should require the prequels to make sense. But two things I would say in defense of Return of the Jedi are: 1) everything that requires training also requires testing before official "graduation," I can't think of any examples from the real world that contradict that, so we don't need the prequels to justify the concept; and 2) when a movie leaves room for the viewer's imagination to fill in certain details that are not fully explained, that doesn't always have to be seen as a flaw (though it sometimes is)
A writer can allow the reader/viewer to fill in some gaps, yeah. Such as so-and-so background character's profession or personality.
But this? This is a major arc in the trilogy. Luke's training as a Jedi is the most crucial aspect of his character development.
What was Luke even doing between episodes? ROTJ feels like it's taking place a good solid two years after ESB. And Luke and Yoda's last conversation clearly happened when he left for Bespin to save Han and Leia.
Let's really examine Yoda's claims. He said there was nothing more to teach Luke. He said it was unfortunate that Luke left before his training was complete. As though the confrontation with Vader on Bespin was the final test: resisting the dark side, but Yoda wanted to help fortify Luke's mind first.
But he states that one more confrontation with Vader is required. What is the nature and outcome of this final confrontation supposed to be? Converting Vader back to Anakin? Destroying him? Are they one and the same thing? If not, and destruction is meant to be a literal killing as Obi-Wan seems to argue: an apprentice becomes a Jedi through murder. And Luke refused to murder his father. And thus by that logic, never achieved the rank of Jedi.
Did Luke becoming a Jedi depend on Vader making the choice to become Anakin again? That's like if McDonald's would only hire me if my father promised to eat their egg McMuffins every morning.
Surely Jabba's pupils being able to dilate is far more of a concern than these simple story elements. Surely.
The jackal gave birth in ROTJ, so to speak. The destruction of this franchise's integrity, at least in the film department, began WELL before TPM.
deepanddark20 said:
I think this is actually a major reason that in the prequels the Jedi talk about a set of "trials" that have to be faced before your Jedi-hood is official. Training alone isn't enough for Jedi status. I think that was put in the prequels to offer the explanation that Return of the Jedi was lacking for why Luke had to confront Vader. Since the Jedi have been disbanded in Luke's time, the official trials that existed in the Old Republic days aren't available to him anymore, so his circumstances have to be used to create a custom set of trials for him.
So what you're saying Yoda's really terrible at making those up. "Yeah, we're done with the training here. So, remember that thing you just did? If you do it another time I'll hand you your Jedi badge. No, the first time didn't count because I said so." ;)
The idea of a final trial is fine in itself. Just have it make some sense.
deepanddark20 said:
when a movie leaves room for the viewer's imagination to fill in certain details that are not fully explained, that doesn't always have to be seen as a flaw (though it sometimes is)
It doesn't work in this case, though. What Yoda is talking about has already happened in the previous movie.
Think about it. The whole reason Yoda's able to have this little speech is because Luke's already done the very thing Yoda tells him to do in the speech he's giving him. It's painfully obvious that the scene is there because the movie needs a climax... somehow, but it just doesn't make sense the way it's written.
And it wasn't even that difficult to fix. The idea with Obi-Wan would've been trivial, to name one example. Cutting the mention about completing Luke's training altogether would've created tons of possibilities for the final sequences with minimal, if any, alterations, to name another. Making Luke's purpose in confronting Vader more vague to the viewer by doing so would've already been a colossal improvement. Hey, look, there's some tension in the climax all of a sudden.
I think ROTJ could be cut a little more slack. Sure, not every Jedi has an evil father who needs to be redeemed, but Luke isn't like any other Jedi. They were all trained when the Jedi order still existed. There may have been a more "standardized" test for becoming a Jedi in those days. Luke is the first one to ever be trained in an environment where the Jedi Order has been decimated. His training to become a Jedi is analogous to Rocky Balboa training in the wilderness using logs and rocks and other creative uses of his surroundings. It isn't too much of a stretch that since Luke's circumstances are unique, his final test would be unique.
I don't necessarily agree with your diagnosis of that particular part of Jedi's story. However, I confess.....
I have always felt that characters jump a bit between Star Wars episodes, rather than smoothly transitioning (Luke jumps to being a full fledged Jedi, Han Solo jumps to being a fully committed member of the Alliance who's no longer a loner, etc.). These are great character arcs, but they are partially executed by using the time between episodes as a shorthand.
To some extent I do believe these jumps can be explained by the events we aren't shown between episodes (I actually like that these movies are made in such a way as to imply that the in-between time was not irrelevant; it stimulates the imagination about what happened during those times and it helps the world of the movies to feel fuller).
But that explanation only goes so far, and I have to admit it doesn't go far enough to perfectly prevent these character inconsistencies from being a flaw.
Over the years I have come to realize that there are different types of flaws a movie can have, and some types of flaws make it impossible for me to love a movie whereas other types don't. The flaws of the prequels fall into the former category for me, while the flaws of the O.T. fall into the latter. I wish the only flaw in the prequels was characters taking leaps of development in between episodes; I could have lived with that. For example I could accept that 20 year old Anakin is so radically different from 10 year old Anakin if his acting and dialogue were at least at a minimal level of acceptability.
This jumping/inconsistency of characters between episodes is not something that only ROTJ is guilty of. TESB is not innocent.
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on here, and I don't think my opinion matters more than anyone else's. I just see a need for more representation on here of the opinion that ROTJ is one of the best movies ever made, since the opposing opinion already has sufficient support on the forum. I think someone else would do a better job than me though, since I'm way better at having opinions than defending them.
Sorry, m_s0, I typed that up before your post was posted. I see you already commented on some of my points.
I'm going to stop pursuing this topic on this thread since this thread is supposed to be about J.J. Abrams and Episode VII and I don't think I can change anyone's mind about Return of the Jedi anyway
You're a reasonable and articulate poster, deepanddark20. And you're right, we should return to the real topic.
deepanddark20 said:
Sorry, m_s0, I typed that up before your post was posted. I see you already commented on some of my points.
I'm going to stop pursuing this topic on this thread since this thread is supposed to be about J.J. Abrams and Episode VII and I don't think I can change anyone's mind about Return of the Jedi anyway
Hey, when I was writing the previous post Reegar's wasn't there either ;) I tend to walk away from the computer or just start doing something different in the middle of writing a post.
There's no info on VII, though, so we might as well carry on. Hah.
Oh, and I don't want to get into comparing the gaps between the movies, but since Reegar already brought it up I'll just say that the gap between ESB and RotJ always bothered me for a multitude of reasons. I'm probably not the only one.
deepanddark20 said:
ROTJ is one of the best movies ever made
I sure hope not, because that would be depressing. Fortunately, the relatively few movies I've seen in my lifetime lead me to believe otherwise ;)
There's always going to be those "stay on topic" people, and while I'm pretty fast and loose with that rule on every forum I join, maybe it'd be best to create another thread titled "Everything Wrong With ROTJ" or something like that.
But if you guys carry on discussing this, I'm obsessive enough to go right along. :P
Nah, that post was just meant to give me closure.
So, guys, I sure hope J. J. Abrams knows how to end his trilogy properly ;)
m_s0, you make a good point about there being no information on VII... It's like this thread starts out by saying J.J. Abrams will direct it, and then from there everybody just talks about whatever they want because that's all we know. Still feels like the focus of this thread should stay on Episode VII though, but if you guys don't care then I honestly don't care either.
m_s0, we are just going to have to agree to disagree in a friendly manner about ROTJ being one of the best movies ever made.... I respect your difference of opinion. (It's probably a mistake for me to mention this right now, but would it make your head explode if I told you I feel the same way about Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom?)
Reegar and m_s0, I have to thank you both for being very kind in what you've said to me. I really appreciate it.
Not to keep provoking, but I definitely think the gap between Star Wars and Empire could be criticized. I don't criticize it, but I just think it could be done (and probably has been done). The gap between Empire and Jedi could be distinguished from the gap between Star Wars and Empire, and arguments could be made about one gap being worse than the other, just like I distinguish between the flaws of the o.t. being acceptable and the flaws of the p.t. being unacceptable, but it's all differences of opinion (which doesn't mean it isn't fun to discuss).
I have to admit though that I really don't like debate, even if I strongly disagree with someone, it's just not my thing personally. I find it exhausting and I'm always dissatisfied with my part in the debate (probably my perfectionism kicking in). I much prefer to watch other people debate each other; I love that actually.
Tobar said:
Mrebo said:
I would however point out that Anakin was from Tatooine. That Yoda wears hermit clothes while living as a hermit doesn't inform very much. And what of Luke wearing all black in ROTJ while asserting his Jedi-hood? If it were so established, wouldn't they have stuck him in "Jedi robes"?
LUKE
But I need your help. I've come back to complete the training.
YODA
No more training do you require. Already know you that which you need.
Yoda sighs, and lies back on his bed.
LUKE
Then I am a Jedi?
YODA (shakes his head)
Ohhh. Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must confront Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi will you be. And confront him you will.
He's not a Jedi until the end of the film.
Even simpler: Luke asserted to be a Jedi in the planned rescue at Jabba's palace. In the dialogue we can argue whether Luke was only seeking confirmation, whether there is a bright line, whether he needed Yoda's stamp of approval, etc. But when Luke showed up at Jabba's palace claiming to be a Jedi, dressing like one would have been Step 1.
The blue elephant in the room.
If someone posted this earlier, pardon me. One confirmed returning cast member. ;)
http://starwarsblog.starwars.com/2013/11/19/r2-d2-is-in-star-wars-episode-7-and-hes-fan-made/
Nice to see some fans get a chance to become part of the production.
I'd still like to see Kenny Baker return for sentimental reasons. You'd think with modern tech they could make a Artoo he could "drive" with a tiny camera and LCD monitor. Those remote controlled Artoos run amok on the set sooner or later. ;)
Where were you in '77?
Look at it this way. We see four Jedi in the OT. And they're all wearing the robes. Which implication makes more sense: it's a coincidence that they're all wearing robes, or they wear robes because they are Jedi?
Also, Jedi are supposed to be Samurai, right? Don't Samurai usually wear robes?
A samurai also wore armor, including a helmet. Should Jedi?
Reegar said:
A samurai also wore armor, including a helmet. Should Jedi?
Nope, that's already taken:
So I guess the robes is all they get ;)
Creepy!
I'd deck myself in as much cortosis as possible if I were a Jedi.
deepanddark20 said:
m_s0, you make a good point about there being no information on VII... It's like this thread starts out by saying J.J. Abrams will direct it, and then from there everybody just talks about whatever they want because that's all we know. Still feels like the focus of this thread should stay on Episode VII though, but if you guys don't care then I honestly don't care either.
m_s0, we are just going to have to agree to disagree in a friendly manner about ROTJ being one of the best movies ever made.... I respect your difference of opinion. (It's probably a mistake for me to mention this right now, but would it make your head explode if I told you I feel the same way about Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom?)
Reegar and m_s0, I have to thank you both for being very kind in what you've said to me. I really appreciate it.
Not to keep provoking, but I definitely think the gap between Star Wars and Empire could be criticized. I don't criticize it, but I just think it could be done (and probably has been done). The gap between Empire and Jedi could be distinguished from the gap between Star Wars and Empire, and arguments could be made about one gap being worse than the other, just like I distinguish between the flaws of the o.t. being acceptable and the flaws of the p.t. being unacceptable, but it's all differences of opinion (which doesn't mean it isn't fun to discuss).
I have to admit though that I really don't like debate, even if I strongly disagree with someone, it's just not my thing personally. I find it exhausting and I'm always dissatisfied with my part in the debate (probably my perfectionism kicking in). I much prefer to watch other people debate each other; I love that actually.
I quite like Temple of Doom, actually. For one thing, it's a standalone adventure and not a conclusion to a trilogy with a very strong middle so there was less to screw up just because of that ;) It's silly, it's juvenile, it's not really as dark as Lucas probably thinks it is (he did say something to that effect in the making of documentary), but I don't mind all of that. Not even Short Round and Kate Capshaw. I actually might've blown your mind instead here, lol.
And don't worry. I'm sometimes ready to start debunking my own posts by the end of a longer discussion. Confrontation allows you to pick up on stuff you wouldn't necessarily think of on your own.
deepanddark20 said:
Reegar and m_s0, I have to thank you both for being very kind in what you've said to me. I really appreciate it.
I can't say I know what I've done to deserve this, but I guess you're welcome.