The Prequel Radical Redux Ideas Thread — Page 256

brash_stryker said:

I've been mulling the prequels over (AGAIN!) and trying to conciliate what's possible in editing/reshooting with what we know from the OT pre 1999, and I think I've come up with my most practical idea to date, whilst still keeping the reveal in ESB. It's a combination of existing ideas from myself and other members, most notably Bingowings' dissociative fugue concept - at least he's the first person I remember bringing this up.

Basically, when Obi Wan takes Anakin on as a student (Obi is not a student himself and Qui Gon, if he exists in said edit, is just a fellow Knight), we would have one of the council members make reference to Obi Wan's previous failed student. This could be done through filming new human council members (something the prequels sorely need) or alternatively through redubbing. They could elaborate and say the student turned to the dark side, but "failed" works also. This sets it up from the get go that Obi had an apprentice so we can immediately reference that line in ANH "Was a pupil of mine until he turned to evil" and assume it's this person.

Then when we meet Darth Maul, who either remains nameless or is called Darth VADER. It's revealed through redubbing or creative re-editing of existing dialogue that HE is the failed apprentice. Maul/Vader still kills Qui Gon, Obi still cuts him in half, but we get some kind of hint that he's not dead - whether it's shot of him dragging his torso away after his fall down the shaft or a full on rebuilding scene where you see him get some robot legs attached or even put in the Darth Vader suit. There are a lot of variables to consider and they all depend on resources available when shooting.

In the next film/s, Grievous would be scrapped in favour of Vader in full costume. 

This is the point at which I'm not sure whether it's practical or doable, but Anakin would fight VADER. Footage of Anakin fighting (Dooku, Obi, droids, whoever) would have to be roto'd out and creatively superimposed into footage of costumed Vader swinging his saber (which would require the costumed actor to be fighting thin air).

Obviously, it would be really difficult to get them to appear to interact convincingly so you'd have to weigh up whether it would be better to just film a new Anakin actor (seeing as we're so limited by the Anakins we have anyway). That's more into the realms of a refilming rather than a re-edit with refilmed elements though, so I'll shut up about that for now. 

In the Duel, Vader taunts Anakin with threats that after he's done with him, he'll kill his master and his loved ones. Anakin strikes Vader down in a rage. 

He walks away.

The scene may get a bit 'visiony' like the 'force cave' in ESB. (or change in some way to make it seem surreal, like something isn't quite right)

Anakin turns just in time to see Vader rise up behind him and raise his saber.

We cut away to hear Anakin scream and then silence.

This is the point at which Anakin "dies" and "becomes" Vader, though the viewer doesn't know it at this point.

A first time viewer would think that Vader actually killed Anakin. A viewer who already knows will see it as a force-vision and an allegory all in one. Anakin, in giving into his hate, has taken up the mantle (and costume) of the Dark Lord.

From this point on, we see Vader committing atrocities in costume and no one need be any the wiser....

This is much much better than what we got.... Let's get this done? =)

Yeah drawing upon the 'cave aesthetic' could be really good to explain some of this. It would change the way we interpret the cave in ESB then to reflect how we would see it in the earlier episodes.

I like the idea of having Maul as the 'failed' apprentice too. I was wondering a while back about a Clone Wars edit series (as a surrogate PT) and introducing Maul in the same way.

brimforge said:

sounds very ST to me ;-)

you thinking along the lines of "Project Hyperion" ?

 

hehe, and "Unicron" battles the Deathstar (or isn't he the same?)

Haha, I've never heard of that. Brash and I were sharing some ideas, and this was one of them.

I've been musing a fair bit on a restructured AOTC which places the Geonosis Arena and Escape at the start of the film, as suggested a while back.

This plot would steal some bits from TPM, as well as require some new footage to create a NEW episode 1.

A new plot point would be the factory world of Geonosis possessing a form of transportation which allowed it to travel to other star systems, launching surprise attacks, as well as also acting as a defense mechanism. Brash suggested that whatever was allowing the planet to do this could also possibly power the Death Star later on.

Thematically this would return to Star Wars' roots (Hidden Fortress), whilst not being too much of a Death Star rip off.

The Republic will already have a Navy and an Army, but no Clones. This smaller force would rescue both our heroes and the Jedi at the beginning of the film, who are clearly outmatched by the overwhelming Droids. During their escape, the Planet would activate its Transportation ability for the first time and disappear into some sort of vortex, sucking in some space ships and shattering its moon into fragments (creating the asteroid belt later on). It is not known what happens to the Planet at this point, people might assume it just destroyed itself. MYSTERY.

New footage of Navy officers and unmasked troopers would reinforce the lack of clones and allow for dialog opportunities outlining new points in the film. There would also need to be Separatist staff too, who would be seen operating machinery.

The film would then cut to Coruscant, where the threat is explored further. It is established that the Clone Army needs to be enlisted, although there is debate as to whether this is necessary. The senate itself is bombed, and numerous Senators are murdered in various assassination attempts which follow.

Anakin and Obi-wan's car chase is restructed to suggest a related investigation which leads to Padme's rescue (as oppose to them specifically protecting her). Somehow we will get to the point where the Assassin is assassinated by the Mandalorian, as the Poison Dart plot point is essential.

Padme is seen to be at risk, she is sent back to her home planet with Anakin. Now after the Opening scenes in the Arena there should be some chemistry between the two, so it should seem generally less awkward if editted right. Their time on Naboo continues throughout the film, suggesting a few weeks is spent there between inter-cutting scene's of Obi-wan and the Senate.

Obi-wan's investigations continue, exploring the Mysterious Poison Dart, asking the Jedi Droids, maybe visiting that fat Chef guy, and much later visiting the Jedi Temple to ask Yoda and the Archives. It is all leading to the 'missing planet' subplot, however this gap will not be Kamino, but will actually be Geonosis' original system (we realise the world moves around).

Meanwhile, a red planet appears in the Sky above Naboo, the Droids invade and conquer the world. Anakin and Padme make a daring escape from the Palace, and head back to Coruscant. The Senate gives Palpatine powers to enlist the Clones, and Yoda sends Obi Wan to the Clone Factories to see the Army.

Obi-wan arrives, see's the process, and meets Jango. At this point he'd see a row of Poison darts in his Quarters, and would realise he is the Assassin. They fight, Obi Wan tracks him to Geonosis' new location. They fight again, Obi Wan lands, he sends a message to the Council, and the Jedi, Clones, Fleet, EVERYONE heads to Geonosis for a big battle.

Anakin would need to travel from Coruscant with the army, but Padme stays behind. During the Battle Obiwan+Anakin find Dooku and fight him in the Vortex Control room. Dialogue from Dooku's prison conversation with Obi-wan is reused in the fight so everything is revealed about the Dark Lord.

The Republic defeats the Seperatists, and the Planet is incapacitated.

Making of Return of the Jedi says that Palpatine looks the way he does because he's an ancient being who uses the dark side to extend his life. Cut everything that implies otherwise. In fact, make it so he's not a Sith.

Replace Mas Amedda (after Palpatine becomes Chancellor) and Sly Moore with the people in purple from ROTJ.

What if Geonosis had a Vortex Generator that allowed it to travel throughout space?

I didn't want to shoot down your idea/s brash or ben - it just came out of nowhere, without more context it was a very strange thing (like some others saw it too), BUT:

in light of the more complex synopsis changing "Episode 2" and getting closer to "Hidden Fortress", it's a really cool device ;-)

ever thought, that the "machine" could be some sort of "gravity well" ?

it could explain, why there was "no" planet or whatsoever and it (with some science theory) could explain, how the "planet/oid" can travel from place to place (=> wormhole) - showing up out of "nowhere"!

I think it is important, that in the end this "technology" is destroid, because we don't see or hear about in the OT (maybe in the future if someone is willing to change the new Trilogy)

maybe it could be ancient tech from the Sith / Madalorians - I also thought, that the whole cloning thing could be a paralell to our modern world A-bombs or ABC-weapons ... that it was banned, but the means of an uncontrollable foe / conflict drove the Republic to desperate measures ...

As for Anakin VS Vader: I only found 2 possible (logical) ways to fix that bug ...

A) insert pupil "Vader", name him or not, just show he is around, he is like Anakin is now, not a friend of Obi-Wan, always "testing" him (and maybe "Ani" too) - let there be a duel between "Ani" and Vader, never show who really won, maybe let Obi-Wan know?

B) we have a very twisted soul in Anakin Skywalker, he is/was a good man (and no more boy or kid stuff!) - he is friend to OB1 and they share their part of the Clone Wars(!) - helping Bail Organa and other senators / systems ...

And here is where it gets messy: "Ani" changes through the war/s, he is getting depressed, feeling/seeing (in visions/dreams) a dark shadow looming over him - he belives it to be "death" or some sinister premonition, he doesn't quite understand - so he consults Yoda(?) - here it is like with Luke, that the future isn't static and always moving "bla bla" -.-

But it is even darker: "Ani" has some sort of "shell-shock", otherwise to OB1 he never could shake off the terrors from the battles/fights, they creep into him and there is a part, that likes it ...

hereon you could do anything, just DON'T show HOW "Ani" is turning INTO Vader, make "Vader" the shadow he should be in the PTs  ;-)

the bonus? - let Palpatine be a "misguided" senator - and "Sidious" the dark shadow that sucks out life of the Republic ...

brimforge said:

What if Geonosis had a Vortex Generator that allowed it to travel throughout space?

I didn't want to shoot down your idea/s brash or ben - it just came out of nowhere, without more context it was a very strange thing (like some others saw it too), BUT:

in light of the more complex synopsis changing "Episode 2" and getting closer to "Hidden Fortress", it's a really cool device ;-)

yeah i thought it'd be funny just to post something absurd up as a starting point!

i guess the geonosis travelling subplot unifies the enemy for this film. it becomes the death star/hidden fortress/princess eating dragon, and unifies the focus of the audience onto a single benevolent enemy.

should the planet be destroyed in the film, it would leave the seperatists with their fleet, which we could see destroyed in the following film. keeps it simple.

another idea thrown out ages ago was giving dooku a mask. this could allow additional footage to be filmed, and could allow for a 'big reveal' later in the film possibly.

Hey Guys, just want to say I am a huge fan of the forum, and am glad to be joining.

So, I had an idea that could add an illusion of depth to the prequels as a whole when watched together. 3 characters contributed very little to the story accept to say "mystery." Chancellor Valorum, Sifo Dyas, and Darth Plagueis. It seems to me that these 3 characters should be merged into one. It makes no sense that sifo dyas (whoever he is) should go to Kamino and say "hey the republic needs an army, help me out would you?" Nobody checks?  They just do it? It would make sense if Sifo Dyas was chancellor Valorum. He was chancellor and a Jedi, his word would be trustworthy on its own merit. This also gives an element of reason  to the "negotiations" in episode 1. If the Jedi had not gone to Naboo, it is conceivable that the separatist movement could have started there, with dooku becoming involved later. As we saw in the theatrical cut, forcing the Nemodians off of Naboo served as the catalyst for the separatist movement. So either way, the outcome would have been the same if the intention was gain power. If Valorum were Plagueis, the events of episode 1 could be seen as Master V Apprentice. Palpatine wants to overtake the republic by force, his master from within with cunning. Valorum sends the Jedi to isolate Sidious which ultimately forces the formation of the Separatist movement. He then orders the army after the events of TPM, later to be killed by his apprentice in his sleep. Having Valorum be plagueis is also an interesting reveal as the Sith have been present and in power all along. The point to this being, the Jedi are fallen already, this is why they need a chosen one, are blind, etc. If the Jedi are good, the story makes no sense. The interesting thing about this is that all it requires is a change to TPM's opening crawl (to mention Sifo Dyas Valorum) and possibly a flashback during the opera scene in ROTS. ("he could use the force to create life" flash to Kamino.) Also, we see Qui Gon talk to Valorum in TPM (maybe thats why Qui Gon can merge with the force? It just seems that this subtle change could give some internal consistency.

What do you guys think?     

hm, but Valorum wasn't a Jedi ... the whole point was that "Sifo Dyas" should have been either Dooku or Qui-Gon, not another Jedi, we haven't seen, that is killed offscreen - make "mystery" where it is needed and remove where it is just confusing or dull.

I really dislike the concept "rule of two" - it should be more mysterious who, what and how many Sith / dark Jedi there are ... the Jedi Order doesn't have ALL the info and the things they "know" are/could be outdatet

the Sith should have "given" false data - like Palpatine did later to the Rebel Alliance ;-)

another point to take into consideration is this:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/deleted-jedi-line-redeemed-obi-653550

maybe it can be worked on - Yoda being a more strict and dictating master?

I know Valorum wasn't a Jedi, the point is to imply that Valorum, Sifo Dyas, and Plagueis are the same person. If dooku were sifo dyas it wouldn't make sense because he says "how could the Jedi come up with an army so quickly?" If he ordered the army, his statement is superfluous. If it were just any Jedi like qui gon, what authority do they have to speak to the cloners for the whole republic? See what I mean? If Sifo Dyas is Valorum, it is at least more believable that they would make the army without needing to ask questions. Not too mention if qui gon were sifo dyas, his master Dooku would be aware of what was going on. Like I said, this way settles a lot of contradictions and adds some depth.

The notion that thousands (going by the size of their HQ) of Jedi could maintain peace and order in a GALACTIC REPUBLIC of thousands of star systems is hokey.

There must have already armed forces (other than the Jedi) to maintain some kind of order, an order that would be constantly tested.

So the clone army must be a plus, an extra armed force designed to counter the droid armies of the Seperatists.

You don't need any secrets there.

The beginning of AOTC should be Obi-Wan inspecting the clones that have already been authorised and grown.

Padme and her ilk should be calling for an ethical rethink of policy to minimise escalating the war and to consider the moral implications of breeding armies of brain washed slaves to serve the Republic.

But by the time the Separatists are churning out droid armies it make sense that the counter force would already be in place.

It makes no sense that the Jedi would use the Clones if they have just been discovered and created under mysterious means that are linked to two senatorial assassination plots against a woman opposed to these sort of things happening.

It just doesn't make any narrative sense at all.

It really feels like Lucas had a plot and then jumbled the pages up so the plot didn't make sense any more.

This is probably why these films get fan edited so much.

@ Gimpy

ok, giving "Valorum" more background is one thing, but what you propose here, is to some degree the thing what we expected from Palpatine: to show the  face of an "innocent" senator / politician and in reality / hiding his alterego "Sidious" ...

and "mixing" 3 different "persona" is a little too much - ok "radical", but has it that "impact" that the Prequels need ?

a possible "Master VS Apprentice" would be Dooku / Maul - if we want to keep Palps a "secret" till the end ...

I think "how the army was ordered": one person could really just happen to land on Kamino (having a BIG credit card in his pocket!) and telling them "folks" his mission is on behalf of the Republic / Jedi Order (it isn't that "papers" couldn't be forged or something) - simple as that and no more questions asked ;-)

Dooku is doing the same as Plapatine, playing "dumb" - bluffing, as with OB1, when he tried (like Vader) to convert him to his cause (here we could change Dooku to rogue Jedi ?)

one other thing is the "original" for the clone army: a bounty hunter is a "bad idea" - even if he is "bad ass" - better to get a handfull of "candidates" and turn them into a fighting force!

it was never reveiled, why no Jedi / Sith were cloned ...

point is: Jedi don't do politics - that is maybe why they fail: because they keep to themselves (for too long) - when we see it, the Order is a dying dinosaur - until the Sith / dark Jedi "kill" it and Luke later rebuilds a new one ...

Valorum being the "poor" and tragic diplomat, is rather fitting: he was the guy the Republic should have followed, but they got tangled in a web of lies and conflicts, and fear drove the galaxy to the dark side - maybe let Valorum be a victim of the assasin or a casulty of war ? - not vote him out

@ Bingo

there should be something like: back before the "Sith / Mandalorian Wars" (more background is the stuff what PT missed), there were thousands of Jedi and they could keep peace by numbers (and back then they really cared ...) - but through the times their numbers dwindled (the "balance being disturbed ?) and at the time we "start" they are a shadow of old glory - OB1 is somewhat nostalgic ?

your other points make sense ;-)

@ brimforge: Yeah, I get what your saying about mixing 3 persona being over the top, I agree. It just seemed like a way to take what we were given and add some background, a suspenseful backdrop to seemingly purposeless plot points. The reason I thought Valorum would be good as Plagueis is his name. Finis Valorum (according to Wookiepedia) Lit. End of virtue, good name for a closet Sith lord. ;)It seemed a good way to give the prequels what the originals had, a back story. The backdrop for the original movies was the clone wars, the prequels had none.

@ bingowings" You're definitely right about the ridiculousness of the Jedi as the security force for all the various star systems, and its implied that each system has its own security (like Naboo). The thought process behind having Valorum be the Jedi sifo Dyas was that the republic could be like ancient Rome. Members of the praetorian Guard (imperial security) would often set up one of their own as a potential Caesar, or a regiment would declare their captain. The Jedi in this scenario would be like the guard preferring one of their own in power. Seciors had a great thing going in his TPM edit cutting all of the sidious scenes, there was much more of a phantom feel in that version. :) When I saw sith in theaters, it was like there was a train going by. Every car was where it had to be, but without anything substantial behind it.

As a solution to a problem the idea has some merit but it shouldn't be a problem and the notion that there is a problem is sort of problematic.

If China invaded Cuba, America would respond.

There wouldn't be a debate about why America responded or some secret plot to maintain a force to defend Cuba from China.

America would do something about an act of aggression on it's doorstep regardless of the history it had with it's neighbour.

Same with the Federation/Confederacy.

i would have the Confederacy declared in the first film and have other planets attacked at the same time as Naboo.

The army should be in response to violence not to the desire for separation (the current PT is obsessed with keeping the Republic whole rather than keeping it safe) and so far we only have one major act of aggression.

That way you don't need any debate about if those actions should be responded to only some debate as to if a brainwashed army of purpose grown slaves is the way.

Also wouldn't it be easier to sell the idea to the Senate if the people of the army reproduced via cloning already anyway (maybe they are genetically sterile or have some cultural taboo regarding conventional reproduction)?

That way the ethics boil down to the issue important to Padme, limiting escalation rather than what amounts to child soldiery. 

yeah, combining characters CAN be useful and maybe the "solution" to some story/plot holes ...

therefore I think the Qui-Gon/Dooku hybrid is the most promising, giving many interesting possibilities, like a returning character (from the dead ?)

and again as for the Jedi as senators/chancelor - I think it is a very "dangerous" idea, why ? - because we, the audience (and possibly many people in the Star Wars Universe) don't like Jedi (as they are shown) ... so turning / bringing a Jedi into a position of power (and Yoda told us, that "real" Jedi don't look for that) is the "box of Pandorra" - antother thing only Sith (dark Jedi) would do ... so if you propose to have a "secret" Jedi in that position ok, THAT could work (if other things fall in place), but the idea of an Roman senate with Jedi in it doesn't (read Yodas teachings!)

some ideas circle around how and who starts the conflict: I think we have a handful of options ... turning the Republic into some kind of "techno union" and making the Federation a pre-(Rebel)Alliance, with many supporters from the alien community - here comes the "radical" idea: make Yoda their leader and Dooku a loyal republic arisctocrat / Jedi / noteworthy persona ...

this would help shift the Republic to Empire later, when at the beginning many (all ?) alien worlds together form the Federation, because of slavery, the massive military force (droid army) and "human/alien rights" in general - leaving behind humans in control of the galactic core (and the key players like Sienar Fleet and Kuat Drive Yards, who build weapons for both Republic and later Empire - maybe some could be "shipped" to the other sides?)

so our "Federation" would need supporting troops, as many farmers and such are not soldiers or trained in combat: enter the clones - could be volunteers or "hired guns", just produce as many to keep the droid forces of the Republic at bay, until the Federation "armies" are ready ...

and this could lead to "capture" the cloning technology (or re-installing it) as a improvement to "keep out the barbarians" - making copies of the best fighters, tacticians, name it who is most valued to lead and support the Republic Army!

Big question still remains: do we want / can have cloned Jedi ?

at the end of the day, it will be brother against brother somehow ... (cue Obi-Wan & Anakin ?)

one possible solution of how to solve the "big conflict" - one other is nearly as we have it, with many tweaks here and there, like a "moving battle/factory planet" and a Republic with a clone army of "commando troops" supporting the enlisted "volunteers"

That was another issue I saw with the prequels. Everyone is concerned about the use of clones because of escalation into war. There are no ethical qualms about creating a disposable soldier caste. I'm guessing reefer either played a huge role in writing the script, or an insufficient one lol. It would be interesting to suggest that cloning could only be done by force sensitive beings. This would help explain why everyone is so quick to blame the Jedi for the war and ultimately for Palpatine's manufactured rebellion in episode 3. The idea that sidious could just manipulate thousands of senators with the dark side into submission is so weak if hes working with his own minions. Yet another reason to say that plagueis commissioned or created the clones (everyone thinks the Jedi are for the war, but its the Sith.) If cloning was so easy Vader and grievous wouldn't need robot suits or parts. They could have new organs grown. If only one who is force sensitive could manipulate the force to create life, it would explain the lack of ethical dilemma at killing all these clones, and hostility towards the Jedi. The alien separatists could be anti clone (against philosophy of the force) hence they use droids, while the republic "supports" the use of clones. Sidious can't replicate his masters work, so he uses the war machine established before him, while he is confined to more conventional tech to create Vader. Magnoliafan had something like this in his opening crawl to episode 1. An issue over labor as opposed to taxes. Mechanical vs biological alien v human. :) seems like Adywan could use some of this for his prequels huh? Lol

@ Brimforge: The idea that a Jedi chancellor who is actually a sith is against Jedi teaching is precisely the point behind this edit idea. What use is a savior figure if the group he's meant to save doesn't need saving? This idea has a manifold effect. It gives the Jedi a darker bent making Anakin into an actual hero of sorts, as opposed to some whining Emo. It gives palatine more of an arc because he's not just "super bad guy," he even has an inverse of the yoda as sage moment. When palpatine speaks to Anakin about plagueis he should be telling the truth not only about his plans, but the Jedi. It puts the audience into the proper frame to watch the original films. When Yoda speaks to Luke in empire, he speaks from experience, not abstract philosophy. The idea that only the force can make life grow, shows the true evil of the empire, and shows the Jedi as victims later on. I considered this idea because it gives us a platform and meaning that is sorely lacking in the prequels. I would probably reshoot the whole thing :) never kill off Darth Maul, have Obi-Wan go to tatooine and actually leave the ship, etc. I like the qui gon dooku dynamic you suggest :) its cool.

I think the biggest reason I chose Valorum as a possible reveal is that its totally unexpected. Sidious doesn't need a reveal. We know its him from the get go. Even if you've never seen the original movies, by episode II when palpatine's all grey and nosforatu creepy, you know he isnt a good guy. :) 

P.S. sorry for the large font on the previous post, computer was acting weird.

@ Gimpy

well, this IS the "Radical Redux" thread ... so think BIG changes, not just "minor" cuts and tweaks to what is already flawed ;-)

Most important thing is to make the Jedi for us viewers likeable - not a bunch of weird dudes sitting around and doing nothing or just wielding their sabers at mindless droids ...

secondly Anakin needs an complete overhaul.

not only to make him less "whiny" - we need him to be the friend Obi-Wan told Luke (us) about - not "from a certain point of view"

good ideas are to have the duality played out - nature VS technology, religion against non-belief (or other views) - so OB1, Yoda and Anakin should not always be on the same side, I think it would be good for them to switch sides through the trilogy, at least on time, to show their progress - towards enlightment or to darkness ...

as for Yoda, I had a long thought how we can have more story and less "stuffing" - why not start Episode 1 with a prologue like "Lord of the Rings'" did ? - show what happened in the last decades/years, not just make a text read a boring "backdrop" that didn't even play out that well!

and then when Yoda takes leave as spiritual guide for the Federation (I see him more as Ghandi or Dala Lama!), he vanishes into exile (yeah, right here, maybe to be never seen again ?)

have OB1 be a supporter of the Jedi Order, who stays behind in a kind of Switzerland / Vatican like Jedi-state on Coruscant - maybe you are right, lets have at least Jedi as ambassadors on the senate, so to speak on their spiritual behalf ;-)

Anakin is like Ob1 a loyal servant of the Republic, they are "young and restless", they don't see the dangers of the oppression yet - Ob1 will be the first to "defect" and will go into service under Bail Organa, while Alderaan was either neutral like the Jedi Order or went with the Federation, they are victims of war now ...

you say, Plapatine isn't "enough" to "control" the whole senate, well true, but he didn't do it just on "dark side" influence - ok, we could have Valorum or any other "puppet" be his "mask", even Palpatine could be a token of "Sidious" (or maybe Sifo Dyos / Plageious)

as to "why not clone limbs / organs ?) - hm, that didn't happend later in the OT either, or did it ?

Vaders armor is somewhat a tool, a weapon but a prison too - as for Grievous, well he is another kind of "monster" - better mix him with Maul and have something "cyborg" that could rival or be prototype for Vader ...

another thing is the Jedi council ... I thought hard about that and it needs to be trimmed down, say it is like a tribunal, for declaring who is to be trained or who gets promoted to master, even verdicts like when a Jedi is to be banned from the Order, that should be talked here, not "daily news" ... so I would have a forum or debate room, filled with at least a dozen Jedi from all ranks and disciplines, and HERE they decide what the council should declare as "law" - makes it more democratic and not "hokey" a we have it now (but even this "good" could go wrong!)

one point I have really trouble to wrap it up is Luke and Leia's mother - aka Padme Amidala - she is somewhat a focus of problems, but somehow we do need "her" in the story, shouldn't we figure out how the Force could "conjure" twins without a mom ;-)

lol, yeah you've got good points about needing to be more radical for sure. I think the scene that I loved was the final duel in sith, with the exception of the terrible dialogue, the emperor showing up and having a tender moment with AnaKin, and off course the way the duel ended "you'll never underestimate my power" wtf

Replace Anakin and Qui-Gon's conversation about what midis are with a conversation about who the Sith are. I've heard people ask "What is a Sith?"

Or better yet, remove the word "Sith" from all three movies.

I had a long thought about Anakin and Padme ...

we have this "Vader" problem, and Haydn doesn't seem "nice" enough to be OUR hero, so either replace him or maybe better insert another "Anakin" and leave Haydn unnamed or as Vader-type pupil of Obi-Wan ...

in hindsight, even the notion of Leonardo DiCaprio as Anakin, isn't that bad anymore, seeing his later films (or Django!) - also a guy like James Franco could support the role more with just his look and play

As for Padma, main thing is that she dies at the end ... it doesn't seem right, from any point of view, better have some things offscreen, not all must be shown and told - too bad she hadn't some scenes with Bail and his family (on Alderaan), so we really should port Naboo or the idea of havning Alderaan in the prequels ...

@darklordoftech

If we have "Sith" it should be a BIG mystery, not the Jedi, not anyone in the movies should have A definite answer - they keep in the shadows and only appear from time to time!

if we leave the Sith out of the story, a question remains: why is Vader the Lord of the Sith ? (is this really mentioned in the OT ?)

brimforge said:

if we leave the Sith out of the story, a questions remains: why is Vader the Lord of the Sith ? (is this really mentioned in the OT ?)

 The word, "Sith" is not in the OT. At all.

The sith thing has come up before, I believe it is only mentioned in the ANH novel. Whether the intention was for this to be an organisation, or just a throwaway name who knows...

Personally I'd love to see the 'Sith' gone from the PT. If any Jedi can just fall to the DARK SIDE without necessarily buying into this secret organisation it makes the idea of turning bad far easier and much more tragic.

Any of us can become evil, angry or violent, we don't necessarily have to join an organisation to do so.

ben_danger said:

The sith thing has come up before, I believe it is only mentioned in the ANH novel. Whether the intention was for this to be an organisation, or just a throwaway name who knows...

Personally I'd love to see the 'Sith' gone from the PT. If any Jedi can just fall to the DARK SIDE without necessarily buying into this secret organisation it makes the idea of turning bad far easier and much more tragic.

Any of us can become evil, angry or violent, we don't necessarily have to join an organisation to do so.

 I totally agree.

ok, I just had a look, the term "Sith" and "Dark Lord" of them, is in all of the OT scripts - but it wasn't said in the movies - I wasn't sure if it showed up in one of the crawls, as it doesn't either ...

yeah, I always thought "The Sith" were a special order of "dark jedi", meaing like you proposed ben, that every Jedi can fall from grace and only the "darkest" try to find more power within old knowledge (aka Sith) ...

So if they as a group don't "walk around" in the PT, it's ok - but it would be interesting to show just how Vader became this "Dark Lord" ?

It's great these ideas are still floating around here. It's been a while since I posted but Ive been lurking for the last week and saw this forum and others talking about similar subjects regarding some radical prequel ideas.

Sorry but Im going to go on a bit of a tangent here. 

*years* ago(literally) bingo, myself and perhaps some others talked about ways to try and preserve the Vader reveal for ESB. 

My own idea was to somehow tie it into Vader as another character who has the name Vader because that's some title he is given because he kicks butt. 

So when he dies and "Vader" emerges Anakin literally is now Darth Vader. It's like he takes the name of his fallen foe. Its a title somewhat. 

So basically Vader, the original, replaces Darth Maul(the name). But if you were doing an edit you would still keep the character of Maul just not the name. Just change it to Vader.

It also makes Obi-Wan less of an outright liar. I understand why he thought he had to lie. But this is also to try and preserve the reveal in ESB. 

The trick would be to do it so its really is tragic for Anakin. People would think he died. Others would not but they wouldn't feel cheated because it would be set up that Darth is a title. It could be short for DARk lord of the siTH. 

And Dooku should be this maverick jedi, like Qui-Gon, who leaves the order and everyone thinks he's bad. He's declared an outlaw by the republic.  But he's really misunderstood because he holds the secret just like in AOTC, that Sidious has infiltrated the republic government at the highest levels. That's why he wants to "start over" with government(as he says in the AOTC deleted scenes). 

He should be far more ambiguous until the end of AOTC when he reveals all to Obi-Wan. Then Obi-Wan would be like "oh crap. By the way Dooku, the republic is coming to blow the crap out of this place. I have to stop it."

That could lead to Kenobi's first fight with Anakin.

Anakin shows up and he's like "Obi-Wan you've turned traitor!" But Kenobi is "No you don't understand." But its too late and they have a lightsaber duel.

The second film would end with Kenobi on the run from the Republic-in-name-only. 

The Jedi are then split. 

This is perfect for Palps. He can now play up the "some jedi are traitors" angle and gain greater control over the remaining loyal jedi on Coruscant.

He will then betray them in Ep 3 when he sends Vader to vanquish the entire jedi order. 

This will be a result of Kenobi somehow notifying a jedi on Coruscant as to whats really going on. The loyal jedi then gets a couple of other of jedi that are convinced they've been duped by someone in the senate. They go to purge the senate and are denounced as fellow conspirators with the earlier outlaw jedi from AOTC.

If you wanted to be even more radical with Dooku, you would then merge the character of Dooku with Qui-Gon and make Qui-Gon this mysterious Lord Tyranus(so named by republic propagandists) in the opening crawl of AOTC. It would only be revealed who Tyranus really is when he drops his hoodie to Kenobi when Kenobi is imprisoned on Geognosis. 

He also wouldn't be ordering the clone army. He would simply be building a droid army on Geognosis to counter the republic threat he now knows exists. 

Imagine that meeting between Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. It would mirror a bit Luke's shock at hearing Vader tell him the truth about his father. Not as powerful but that's how it should be. It should build in surprises throughout the saga. 

Kenobi would be like "this can't be happening." 

Qui-Gon: "search your feelings you know it is true. 

Then Anakin and the "rescue party" would show up to destroy the separatist threat and the despicable Lord Tyranus.

It would be a great dilemma for Obi-Wan.

What will he do? Whose side will join?

Can Qui-Gon be fully trusted? 

It would also throw the audience for a loop too because they would realize the good guys were really the "bad guys" all along. 

We've been cheering for the wrong side! 

Having said all that about Qui-Gon, I don't see how it could really be done though in an edit. Not enough footage.

But you could make that character Dooku. There is enough to do that. 

The Lost 20 could even be a part of it too. These jedi have disappeared recently. They have been thought dead, missing, etc. 

Some have recently died mysteriously on missions. Some are just outright gone.

But they show up at the end with Qui-Gon/Dooku. Qui-Gon has shown them the truth and they've joined him on this crusade to end the republic.

So now we have the jedi traitors vs the loyal jedi. It sets it up perfect for Palpatine to say in Ep. 3 "this jedi order is a little out of hand. I think we need to abolish it".