ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss! — Page 22

SpilkaBilka said:

ROTJ - 5 (maybe a 4.5...)

imperialscum said:

The last Crusade is my favourite Indiana Jones film as well. It is hard for me to imagine how can anyone say it is much worse than the first. But then again I fail to understand how can anyone regard ROTJ as much worse than SW and ESB.

The Ewoks ruined the pacing of the film. Also because of the Ewoks, The Battle of Endor was anti climatic and a bit silly. If it weren't for that....ROTJ would have been the best. 

I watched ROTJ for the first time in years to contrast it beside Daneditor's re-edit. This was a little while ago.

Can't believe this never occurred to me before. The film would be much improved if the Ewok's noises alone were cut down. I wanted so badly for them to shut up. But I forced myself to listen so I could have an accurate feel for this film's quality.

Daneditor did a lot to help. Check it out some time.

I felt like the Grinch. Or the Nostalgia Critic during his emotional breakdown after the Wookiees in the Holiday Special kept on with their insane growling.

Terminator 3 was lame, but not as lame as Terminator: Salvation. Instead of seing all those awesome glimpses of the War with the Machines from the first two films expanded to fill a feature length movie, we get watered-down tripe starring Christian Bale's ego.

Reegar said:

ROTS: D+ (pass, but barely, and my view of it may be deluded by the novelization)

They cast him because he was a fairly big name. You want a big name in your blockbuster for that additional draw. From what I've read his original part was even smaller, but he got involved in the script rewrites and it got a bit out of hand.

DuracellEnergizer said:

Terminator 3 was lame, but not as lame as Terminator: Salvation. Instead of seing all those awesome glimpses of the War with the Machines from the first two films expanded to fill a feature length movie, we get watered-down tripe starring Christian Bale's ego.

I agree that T3 was watchable in way that when its on cable, I can somewhat enjoy it.  Salvation was horrendous as it compares to Superman III horrendous or Rocky V horrendous where I never will watch them ever again. 

I can't stand The Last Crusade.

It's not as racist as or as tatty as Temple Of Doom but it's just a watered down caricature of Raiders.

Sallah and Brody are parody versions of their earlier selves.

It's cut from the same "it'll do" cloth as ROTJ.

SpilkaBilka said:

Doom - 4.5? (though I must say it is the greatest horror movie for 12 year olds ever made)

Crusade - 6.5

ROLA 9.5

TOD 5

TLC 5

KOTC 4.5

My whole life, I have never been a fan of ranking the Star Wars movies above/below each other when it comes to episodes 4, 5, and 6. I have always placed all 3 of them on my highest rank for movies. So I would be hesitant to call RoTJ the "best" movie in the trilogy like the title of this discussion thread does, but that's not because I like ANH or TESB any better.

Having said that, I must admit that the perspective which considers Return of the Jedi to be a significantly inferior achievement to ANH and TESB is a very common one, and many of the reasons given for this perspective are very compelling to me. But it's a perspective that never occurred to me before I read other people expressing it. Which leads me to my next point:

Something just seems really wrong to me about the following scenario: I hold my top level of movie love for Return of the Jedi my whole life into my 30's, and then suddenly I read what people say about it on the internet and it's no longer one of my favorite films. I'm not advocating closed-mindedness, but no matter how much sense people's criticisms of RoTJ make, that scenario doesn't feel right.

I don't have a reasoned-out counter argument for many of the criticisms people level against Jedi. All I know is this: when I sit down to watch it, I have as good an experience as I can expect from a movie. If I read people's criticisms and feel one way, but then watch the movie and feel another way, I think I'll go with the way I feel from actually watching the movie.

I don't appreciate people feeling the need to "explain away" how I feel about Jedi by assuming that I must just be blinded by nostalgia or some other factor, as though the critical opinion of Jedi is the "correct" one and mine is the "biased" one. If we're honest, we can admit that all of our opinions are subjective.

And for those who insist that it makes no sense to love Jedi but hate the prequels, get ready for this: I think the prequels are a suckfest from episode I all the way through episode 3.

Nostalgia certainly plays into it. For me, films I saw as a child I watch differently now than those that I didn't watch in my younger years. It's like my brain has two modes of viewing - pure childish marvel, and mature critical analysis. The real way to describe this would be passive vs. active viewing. Nowadays I tend to watch most movies the latter way. Of course, when I see a movie like, for instance, Thor: The Dark World, I turn off the more analytical aspect. I let the movie take me for a ride, but I still watch actively. 

When I watch something like ROTJ, I find it's much easier to slip into passive viewing, because I've seen the film that way so many times. It's not how I prefer to watch movies, and I feel movies should stand up to active viewing as well, but I can appreciate a film that can simply give you an experience. ROTJ is up there with the other two when watched passively, no doubt. But when watched actively, there leaves much to be desired, unfortunately. That is why it is the least of the three.

Unlike most here, I was a child when the PT was released too. I greatly enjoyed those films at the time (of course there were some things about them that were annoying even for a kid). When I watch them actively today, I can't fail to notice the numerous flaws. However, I think I'm luck in that I can easily slip into that passive mode, and actually still enjoy them in their original state. 

I have to say because of this I feel I'm actually more objective in my active assessment of the PT than most. I don't not share the hatred of them that most do. I think when people watch them, it is easy for them to slip into viewing the films with nothing but hatred. But I can say there are in fact redeeming qualities the the movies. They're not that bad. TPM and AOTC aren't really all that good, but ROTS is. I think it's closer in quality to ROTJ than most realize/would like to admit.

I watched the prequels too largely in my childhood, more-or-less liked them at the time, but I still think they're utter shit now. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

I went to the theater determined to love the prequels. In fact I was so determined, I convinced myself I did love them, and it took me several viewings to realize I don't. They forced me to hate them, kicking and screaming. Yet no matter how many times I watch Return of the Jedi, I don't feel this way about it, not even close.

So yes, I can deceive myself into loving a movie (because of nostalgia or passive viewing or whatever), but there is a limit to how many repeat viewings I can have before I have to admit "okay, this is actually a piece of crap." I watch the Star Wars saga so frequently that if Return of the Jedi were remotely as crappy as the prequels (according to how I judge movies), then I would have realized it by now. It pains me to admit that the prequels are a suckfest and I never wanted to form that conclusion, but after how many times I've seen them I can't deny it anymore.

And this isn't because the prequels have flaws. Repeated viewings of Return of the Jedi have opened my eyes to multiple flaws in that film which ANH and TESB don't have (even though they have their own flaws of a different nature; just to show I can be fair here), and I was planning on loving the prequels even if they were filled with flaws. Of course what constitutes a "flaw" in a movie is a matter of opinion, but that's all this post is (my opinion).

One of the things I actually hate most about living in a world where the prequels exist is that comparisons get made between the prequels and the originals in which people relativize their flaws. A lot of the things that are horrendous about the prequels (acting, dialogue, etc.) were also not oscar-worthy in the originals, but IMO we're talking about a crystal clear categorical difference in quality here. When I complain about the acting/dialogue in the prequels and someone responds by saying "well c'mon, the Star Wars saga never had great acting/dialogue", I want to rip my teeth out.