'Raiders of the Lost Ark' - bluray and colour timing changes (Released) — Page 7

@Reegar: Because back in the days of black and white film, during the photochemical process, the time the film spent in the solution when it was being developed was what decided the contrast, so the process was time-related and then the name just stuck.

@Chewtobacca: I do agree that there could be an interest value to seeing a simple reversal of the negative but it certainly wouldn't be the right way to view the film as a piece of art and it almost certainly wouldn't show the realistic colors seen on the set.

When we used to grade films, they were graded to take projection into account, so what was displayed in the cinema would be as close to the director's vision as possible.

So this does mean that when you scan a print, you have to know the properties of the particular film stock *and* speak to the colourists to find out whether they graded for Xenon, Carbon arc etc.

A 'straight out of the scanner' image looks nothing like the director's original intention. Neither does the negative, or the IP viewed with a different light-source than what it was intended to be shown with.

So film archiving is tricky, do you want to see every last jot of detail that was on the neg, or on the IP or do you want to see what the director intended to be on the screen in the cinema. Nearly everyone feels differently/has a different answer to that question, and none of them are incorrect.

As an archivist, I capture the neg or IP or print with the widest gamut possible so that those decisions can always be made later.

CatBus said:

Out of curiosity, do you happen to have the other half of my amulet?

Does it say "BFF" on it?

Chewtobacca said:

poita said:do you want to see every last jot of detail that was on the neg, or on the IP or do you want to see what the director intended to be on the screen in the cinema.

By this, do you mean things such as detail in dark areas being intentionally lost/crushed?

I know it sounds odd, but yes.

Yes, detail is often intentionally lost or crushed, dark areas may be made darker still, 'crushing' the blacks to intentionally create mood or contrast. Light areas may be burned out to give an ethereal feel. A scene may be made darker, or noisier to hide the fact that it is mostly a matte painting or an effect that wouldn't quite pass the scrutiny of a well lit shot.

An area may be darkened or lightened to attract the eye to a particular area of the screen etc. etc.

That is the colourist's job, to work with the director to adjust the image from the negative to capture the desired emotion of each scene. On the set, the DoP will usually try to capture as wide a dynamic range as they can, so that the options are there in the edit/colourist sessions later.

Also, makeup was applied, matte paintings were done, set colours chosen with the generational loss in mind. So Leia had the makeup-gun set to 'whore' as they knew the generational loss would mute the colours and look natural on the final print. On the neg though it would look overdone.

Restoring film is never straightforward, especially if coming off a negative, the scan will not look anything like the prints of the day. It is best if you have access to the artisans that worked on the film, or their production notes, as you effectively have to re-grade and re-grain the film to match their intended imagery, usually using a good quality print as a reference if there is one.

I do find it interesting to see what may have been hiding in the shadows, it is fun working with a neg as you get to literally see the film in a different light. But it won't be the film the director 'made'.

Exactly. For example, look at this:

The GOUT has more shadow detail than what would have been there on a print (partly because of badly set contrast and partly because it was scanned from an IP) and it makes the matte painting painfully obvious, where it wouldn't have been so jarring on a print. And for example matte boxes being visible on video releases is actually a similar case.

Asaki said:

CatBus said:

Out of curiosity, do you happen to have the other half of my amulet?

Does it say "BFF" on it?

No, it's got a jewel offcenter in the middle of it and writing on both sides.

dvdmike, perhaps you'd like kk650's regraded ROTLA?  You can find it over at tehparadox.  IMO it's a subtle job that gives a good balance between the Blu's warmer pallet and the WOWOW version without going to either extreme.  In fact, it's still pretty warm - but the sky in Egypt is back to being blue.

I'll throw in my two cents. We're probably never going to be able to be definitive on the color timing, short of scanning a print ourselves, and even then-as has been brought up numerous times in this thread-there's film stock, IP differences, color timing decisions, on-set photography, and all kinds of variables to consider.

The new BD timing is for the most part correct and appropriate. Personally I find some scenes a bit too garish in the vein of modern timing and the KOTCS abomination...but it isn't a bad transfer. It also seemed more integrated and better overall in the 35mm print struck for the anniversary.

Footage of same print I saw (not mine): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dprxDRIq23I

What is atrocious is the complete reworking of the soundtrack from new elements and the abandoning of the original, despite the DVD multichannel mix being a bit restrained  (made very obvious in the new 35mm which used this track unlike the IMAX version).

I may get some flack for saying this but I actually prefer the LD for picture despite the aliasing as it seems a bit more natural than the DVD and it is similar to the VHS I grew up with.

Audio...LD wins. No contest. Hands down. End of discussion. The score's integration alone nails it along with directional panning and fine detail not present in the DVD 5.1 derived from the 70mm master.

What about an HDTV (or BD) ColourMatch'ed to LD? By the way, NTSC LD or PAL LD? About soundtracks, no contest, LD forever - I wrote somewhere in the forum, the italian 5.1 soundtrack was actually redubbed for the BD, so the italian LD is a must, as the DVD has the same track, but compressed in ac3.