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The Scientology Thread (was: Ask the Ex-Scientologist Anything) — Page 2

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rockin said:

What was the view on various health issues - were people with cancer for example, allowed to take medicines and have treatment? 

Yes. Any member with serious health issues (that I witnessed) was instructed to see a medical doctor. They were given auditing treatments as well, but I never saw any orders to avoid the doctor.

Don’t do drugs, unless you’re with me.

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I am an alien an I have probed people... though I am getting on a bit and haven't probed anyone for almost a year :-(

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HotRod said:

Do you believe in aliens?

I do believe that there are intelligent beings in this universe other than us Earth people. I don't believe in any name specific aliens, no.

HotRod said:

and have you been probed? 

Negative.

Don’t do drugs, unless you’re with me.

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HotRod said:

What do you think of me....Am I doing ot.com harm or good?

(Serious question)

:p

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 (Edited)

HotRod said:

What do you think of Tom Cruise....Is he doing Scientology harm or good?

(Serious question)

There's a lot I could say when talking about TC, but to keep it brief... 

Currently he's doing harm, but he did a TON of good for a period.

If you had asked me this back in late 2004/early 2005 it would have been an emphatic GOOD. He knew we have an opportunity to really help, for the FIRST TIME; and effectively change people's lives. He's dedicated to that; absolutely, uncompromisingly DEDICATED to that.

I was there for that event (Oct/Nov 2004) and it was very effective at "rekindling failed purposes". This video was reshown many times and used as a tool for many Scientology personnel; registrars (salesmen), recruiters, IAS fundraisers ("war chest" fundraising) and Ethics Officers (police). Many people gave money after watching (with some persuasion afterwards). Many people became more active in disseminating Scientology. Many people joined staff or the Sea Org. Some were guilted into it, others firmly believed that Scn is the solution to humanity's problems. That event was a huge shot in the arm to true blue Scientologists.

Then he started being an idiot with the media. His "Freedom Medal of Valor" video leak was the biggest inciting incident in Anonymous' attack on Scientology. And he continues to say stupid things (see recent comparisons to US soldiers or Olympic runners).

To me Tom Cruise is an excellent example of the arrogance that some Scientologists have. Any rational person can see that he's just putting himself on a pedestal. I mean shit, I've never met a Scn'ist who actually believes that if they pass an accident on the highway they know they're the only person who can help the victim.

Oh and he's made some good movies so yay TC.

Don’t do drugs, unless you’re with me.

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 (Edited)

What do you think about the creator of scientology, also a science fiction writer, being quoted saying, "You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, start a religion"? What about that he lived on a boat with 14 children?

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bkev said:

Is it really as hard to leave scientology as the internet would have me believe?

 
Short answer: Yes. I read Jefferson Hawkin's blog/book, "Counterfeit Dreams" and he speaks sooth.


Longer answer: It depends on a few main factors. If you don't have any family or close friends in Scientology and you're not working in the Sea Organization, then it's just a matter of walking out the door and saying, "See ya later guys. Let me know how all this goes for you."

I wasn't in the Sea Org but I worked at my local Church ("the org"). I got family in so I couldn't just skeedaddle when the veil fell from my eyes. All org staff members are contracted volunteers; you choose a 2 1/2 or a 5 year term. When you're done and you opt to not resign, there's a lot of hoops to jump through. You can leave before your contract ends but it could get messy.

A year before my time expired I had a heart-to-heart with the Corrections Officer, explaining how I wasn't on the same page as everybody else. I did a lengthy "Doubt Condition" and got myself started on the "Leaving Staff Routing Form." Then it was just hanging out in the background, keeping a low profile until it was all over. The last time I was in the org I made it pretty clear where I stood. I had just finished a "confessional" but they felt I was still withholding crimes. I was threatened with a "Suppressive Person Declare" if I didn't get a new "Security Check." My reply was, "If you don't let me leave right now, I'm gonna call the police." So they let me leave. Two years later, I haven't been declared yet. 

Don’t do drugs, unless you’re with me.

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Bingowings said:

Jamie DeWolf comments on how ex-Scientologists find it difficult to reject his great-grandfather's teachings despite any problems they may have with the way Scientology is run. Former devotees of other belief systems tend to be vocally opposed to everything they once believed in but not so much with the ex-Scientology crowd.

Is that because of the investment personal and financial.

It seems to be very draining in terms of cash and time. I can understand the desire to get some sort of return from all that.

I'm sorry I missed this post earlier.

Everybody is different in why they believe in Scn and what keeps them in. Sure, time and money investments make you stay. But for most it's because they felt they made gains in auditing or ran out "past life incidents". That shit's key, if you go track in session it's hard to not see the tech as the holy truth.

Bingowings said:

L Ron also seemed to have a very strange cadence to his voice (especially in later years) is it possible he may have been forced to say the things he said because of brain washing or blackmail?

Eh, I don't know about blackmail. Maybe.

Brain washing, yeah totally. He brain washed himself before writing Book One.

Don’t do drugs, unless you’re with me.

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 (Edited)

Well I just got word that Scientology has declared me a "Suppressive Person". No Scientologists are allowed to have any contact with me, including blood relatives. I am a "persona non grata" in the eyes of my mother, my father, my sister, my brother-in-law and all my past co-workers and friends. The sickening thing is they won't even give me a copy of the issue, if I want to see it I have to go in to see them.

To all those I have lost, I'll miss you.

For more information on Suppressives:

http://www.scientology.org/faq/scientology-attitudes-and-practices/what-is-a-suppressive-person.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressive_Person

Don’t do drugs, unless you’re with me.

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Wow that sucks.  And lumping you in with Hitler is particularly fucked up.

:-(

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My sincere condolences, Neglify.  I hope some of your family comes to their senses in this regard.

Scientology really seems like it's some scary stuff.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em

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Thanks. It's pretty messed up and I've been fucked up all day, but I guess I knew this was going to happen at some point.

Here, let's all listen to Tool sing a song about L. Ron Hubbard. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtJ2f8_lfn4

He had a lot to say.
He had a lot of nothing to say.
We'll miss him. We'll miss him. 
We're gonna miss him. We're gonna miss him.

So long.
We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.
Well then, so long.
Don't cry
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity,
But at least you tried.

Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice that was strong and loud.
We'll miss him. We'll miss him.
Ranting and pointing his finger,
At everything but his heart.
We'll miss him. We'll miss him.
We're gonna miss him. We're gonna miss him.

No way to recall,
What it was that you had said to me,
Like I care at all.

But it was so loud.
You sure could yell.
You took a stand on every little thing.
And so loud.

Standing above the crowd,
He had a voice that was strong and loud and I
Swallowed his facade cause I'm so
Eager to identify with
Someone above the ground, 
Someone who seemed to feel the same,
Someone prepared to lead the way, 
Someone who would die for me.

Will you? Will you now?
Would you die for me?
Don't you fuckin lie.
Don't you step out of line.

Don't you step out of line.
Don't you step out of line.
Don't you fuckin lie.

You claimed all this time that you would die for me,
Why then are you so surprised when you hear your own eulogy?

He had a lot to say.
He had a lot of nothing to say.
He had a lot to say.
He had a lot of nothing to say.

Come down.
Get off your fucking cross.
We need the fucking space
To nail the next fool martyr.

To ascend you must die.
You must be crucified.
For your sins and your lies.
Goodbye.

Don’t do drugs, unless you’re with me.

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 (Edited)

TV's Frink said:

And lumping you in with Hitler is particularly fucked up.

 It's apropos more or less, my great-great-grandfather was named Adolph.

Don’t do drugs, unless you’re with me.

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I am struck by the complexity and cryptic-ness of the structure.  Half of what the OP is posting I can't even follow.  It almost seems like members get so entwined in this tentacled labrynth that they don't notice obviously horrible things like banning family members from seeing each other.  I think the scientific name for that is "groupthink", and the Hitler analogy seems to have been applied to the wrong side, at least in that respect.

Back in the 80s when I was playing a lot of music, many of my musician friends were in Scientology because it got them off of drugs.  So I thought it was fine and benign, until I saw one of them (who I briefly dated) trying to use it to treat someone with alzheimers.  I thought that was seriously presumptuous for someone without a medical background, and have been suspicious of it ever since.

Given my observations, above, is there any sort of self-reflection built into the system?  Or does it (the system) pretty much presume itself to be infalible?

"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars

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Given what they did to Neg, it seems pretty obvious there's no room for self-reflection.

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Most cults seem to practice the same basic things: conceit, legalism, hypocrisy, control of the masses through fear/intimidation, complete shunning of former members, etc.

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 (Edited)

I started working on a comparison between "The Master" and Scientology. Here's what I got so far...

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Film: Lancaster Dodd is the leader of “The Cause”.
Reality: Lafayette Hubbard was the leader of “Scientology”.

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Film: Dodd sails on a ship named Alethia. Alethia is Greek for “the state of not being hidden, the state of being evident”.
Reality: Hubbard sailed a trio of ships, the Apollo, the Athena and the Diana. Apollo was one of the most important and complex of the Greek gods. Athena was a goddess of wisdom, courage, inspiration, etc. Diana was the goddess of the hunt, the moon and birthing. Also, Diana Hubbard was his oldest child with Mary Sue and sailed with them as their “Lieutenant Commander”. (Fun fact. The ships were originally called the Royal Scotsman, the Avon River and the Enchanter.)

References: "Bare-Faced Messiah"; "A Piece of Blue Sky"; "Inside Scientology"

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Film: Dodd tells Freddie he’s “aberrated” and that he’s “wandered from the proper path.”
Reality: “Aberrated” is a common Scientology term, meaning “a departure from rational thought or behavior… The word is also used in its scientific sense… departure from a straight line.”

Reference: Scientology glossary

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Film: Dodd believes he knew Freddie in a past life. There are numerous references to past lives throughout the movie.
Reality: Past life memory is a key factor in Scientology’s doctrines.

Reference: Scientology FAQ

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Film: Dodd says he is “a writer, a doctor, a nuclear physicist, a theoretical philosopher, but above all I am a man...”
Reality: Hubbard was a prolific pulp fiction writer for years before starting Dianetics. He gave himself a “Doctorate of Scientology” degree, from the Sequoia University. In the book “All About Radiation” Hubbard calls himself a nuclear physicist, despite the fact that he never finished his studies. This has been retconned in his official biography to state that he attended the first class in nuclear physics at George Washington University but dropped out to explore life. Also Hubbard has written that he is a man, just like anybody else. As well there are a series of booklets devoted to Hubbard’s life, called “The Ron Series”. “Ron the Philosopher,” “Ron the Explorer,” “Ron the Writer,” etc.

References: "All About Radiation"; "The Ron Series"; "The Truth About L. Ron Hubbard"

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Film: Dodd performs a wedding ceremony.
Reality: Hubbard performed numerous Scientology wedding ceremonies in his days.

References: Scientology wedding ceremony

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Film: Dodd’s wife, Peggy, was originally named “Mary Sue” in the screenplay.
Reality: Mary Sue Hubbard was married to LRH for 34 years.

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Film: Dodd has two children from previous marriage(s); a son, Val, and a daughter, Elizabeth.
Reality: Hubbard had three children before he wed Mary Sue. L. Ron Hubbard Jr. and Katherine May Hubbard with Margaret Grubb. Alexis Hubbard with Sara Northrup.

References: "Bare-Faced Messiah"; "A Piece of Blue Sky"

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Film: Dodd gives a wedding toast and references a “cycle, like life. Birth, excitement, growth, decay, death.”
Reality: In Scientology, the basic cycle of life is “Create, survive, destroy.”

Reference: "Scientology: The Fundamentals of Thought"

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Film: During his wedding toast, Dodd deviates into an analogy involving taming a dragon.
Reality: Often in his recorded lectures, Hubbard would give humorous analogies involving fantasy and sci-fi elements.

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Film: Peggy talks about Dodd spending too much time defending himself from attacks.
Reality: Hubbard had made many references to attacks against Scientology by the AMA, APA, FBI, IRS, etc.

Reference: Wikipedia

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Film: Peggy emphasizes “ex-wives” when listing Dodd’s attackers.
Reality: In a 1967 interview, Hubbard denied having a “second wife,” referring to Sara Northrup. Hubbard wed Sara while he was still married to Margaret Grubb. Both marriages ended in divorce. Hubbard and Northrup had a daughter, whom he later disowned.

References: Interview "The Shrinking World of L. Ron Hubbard"; "Bare-Faced Messiah"; "A Piece of Blue Sky"

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Film: Dodd is writing “Book Two”.
Reality: “Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health” is commonly referred to as “Book One”. But his second book, “Science of Survival,” is never called “Book Two”.

Reference: "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health"

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Film: The Cause’s form of counseling is referred to as “Time Hole work.”
Reality: Scientology counseling revolves around locating painful memories on your “Time Track” or “Whole Track”. (Formula: Time + Whole - W)

References: Scientology website; Scientology glossary

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Film: “Time Hole work” is done with the patient reclined and eyes closed, with the counselor sitting upright. The counselor guides the patient through the incident as if it were happening currently. (“How are you feeling? What do you hear?”) The patient speaks in present tense, “She’s saying…”
Reality: Early Dianetics counseling had the patient (“preclear”) either sitting or reclining with their eyes closed and the counselor (“auditor”) sitting upright. The auditor guides the preclear through the incident as if it were happening currently. (“What do you hear? See? Etc.”) The preclear speaks in present tense, “She’s saying…”

Reference: "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health"; "How to Use Dianetics"

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Film: A chalkboard shows a circular diagram, with phrases “This life,” “Pre-birth,” “Cellular level,” “Conception” and “Previous life.”
Reality: Dianetics (Book One) goes in detail about finding pre-birth incidents and casually mentions “cellular level” and “past life” incidents. A later book (“Scientology: A History of Man”) goes in depth on these latter concepts.

Reference: "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health"; “Scientology: A History of Man

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Film: While watching someone run a pre-birth incident, Peggy tells Freddie that “we record everything” and indicates her pregnant belly. She continues, “through all lifetimes.”
Reality: In Dianetics (Book One) Hubbard talks at length about the “reactive mind” recording all experiences, even while in the womb. And the reactive mind records all past lives.

Reference: "Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health"

Don’t do drugs, unless you’re with me.

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Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:

I am struck by the complexity and cryptic-ness of the structure.  Half of what the OP is posting I can't even follow.  It almost seems like members get so entwined in this tentacled labrynth that they don't notice obviously horrible things like banning family members from seeing each other.  I think the scientific name for that is "groupthink", and the Hitler analogy seems to have been applied to the wrong side, at least in that respect.

Back in the 80s when I was playing a lot of music, many of my musician friends were in Scientology because it got them off of drugs.  So I thought it was fine and benign, until I saw one of them (who I briefly dated) trying to use it to treat someone with alzheimers.  I thought that was seriously presumptuous for someone without a medical background, and have been suspicious of it ever since.

Given my observations, above, is there any sort of self-reflection built into the system?  Or does it (the system) pretty much presume itself to be infalible?

 Scientology is an incredibly dense subject. It takes dedication to properly study it. I've tried explaining things the best I can but naturally it won't make sense to outsiders.

As far as self-reflection goes, that's not an easy Yes or No answer. Hubbard's writings are considered infallible, but he himself has written that you should use your own judgment and believe for yourself what is true.

But you'll get declared if you publicly state that you feel Scientology is bullshit.

L. Ron said:

We of the Church believe... that all men have inalienable rights to think freely, to talk freely, to write freely their own opinions and to counter or utter or write upon the opinions of others.

- Creed of the Church of Scientology


Scientology is a workable system. This does not mean it is the best possible system or a perfect system. Remember and use that definition. Scientology is a workable system.

- Policy letter, "Safeguarding Technology"


What is true for you is what you have observed yourself... Nothing in Scientology is true for you unless you have observed it and it is true according to your observation.

- Article, "Personal Integrity"

Don’t do drugs, unless you’re with me.

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 (Edited)

I got a chance to read my SP declare today.

It was dated 22 August, 2012. I didn't find out about it until 12 February, 2014.*

To summarize what it said...

I spread false data and entheta* about Scientology to other Scientologists and staff members. I stole organizational documents while I was a contracted staff member*. 

I also committed "technical high crimes," from when I was a Scientology counselor. I falsified notes of sessions and omitted vital information (not always) and I fell asleep in session (once). These all happened and I confessed them in my leaving confessional.

It then states I'm a "squirrel." A squirrel is someone who routinely mis-applies Scientology technology harmfully. 

I don't recall the exact High Crimes I was declared for, but I think it was these..

"Violation or neglect of any of the ten points of Keeping Scientology Working..." *
"Pronouncing Scientologists guilty of the practice of standard Scientology."
"Public disavowal of Scientology or Scientologists in good standing..."

...........

So there you go. It is true, I did do dose thangs. Do I regret these actions, in hindsight? Of course. And I wish I was smarter and shut my mouth more, but hey whaddya gone do?

-----------------------------------
Footnotes:

(1) Scientology has a set of steps, "Ethics Gradients". These form a "rough guide to the severity of discipline" within Scientology. With something severe, such as a Committee of Evidence or an SP Declare, it is common practice to put the order on hold for a period of time before fully enforcing it. They call it "suspending findings for a period of review." In my case (I think), they had a temporary approval but not a strong enough case, so they wanted to wait and see if I would do something like say "Fuck L. Ron Hubbard and fuck all his clones" on Facebook.

(2) Entheta = bad juju.

(3) This is totally true. When I left I stole two folders of documents, for my own self-indulgent purposes. Reports written on me, reports I wrote on others, organizational memos and directives, and even some confidential docs I took from some counseling files. My sister found these in my room, after being sent in to spy on me because they thought I was this internet guy

(4) Here are all ten points. And here's the entire Keeping Scientology Working bulletin if you want to read it. You won't understand it though. 

Don’t do drugs, unless you’re with me.