From when I had to sync the 80 and 85 mixes for ESB from Schorman's rips, I would say that they seem to be different mixes. There are more knowledgeable sources of wisdom in regards to SW mixes around here, but I would bet that the SF098-1117 mix is the 80 and the SF148-1242 is the 85. I didn't take note of them, but there were definitely multiple changes between the mixes, as I spent weeks staring at the peaks comparing them with the GOUT equivalents and each other.
By the way, Teeceezy, how are these syncs going? If you're done, I'd like to hear them (esp. '80 ESB and '83 ROTJ).
Not sure how, but completely missed this at the time. The ESB mixes are as done as I will be able to make them. Outside of h_h taking up ESB, they are all synced and patched to match Harmy's release. That's the 80, 85 and 93 mixes, as well as the LD commentary with ambient 93 (I've also found DJ and ABC's Imperial Isolated Score goes great with these). To ROTJ, I sent out a test mix of the 83 but didn't get much feedback. I haven't gotten around to 85 or 93 syncs for ROTJ, as the 83 was the most exhaustive sync of all so far. I can reup them if there is interest.
I've got interest, but not much time for listening and feedback right now, I'm afraid. The last version of ESB '80 I've got has the chopped fanfare and a small glitch where the holographic captains are reporting their status to Vader. I've patched over it in my own crappy fashion but would prefer a better-done job if it's out there.
Didn't realize h_h was taking up ESB. When did that happen?
I did make revisions to the 80 and I thought I sent it out again. I don't know that he is, but I meant that outside of him taking up remastering the 80 and 83, it's as good as a sync as these may get. I'll try get these up again and PM once they are.
Fantastic, thanks! ESB 80 and ROTJ 83 are the ones I'm interested in.
So, random question:
Do the TESB and ROTJ '85 mixes have any difference in content when compared to the '80 and '83 mixes, respectively?
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
From what I've gleaned from the thread, no. We're talking different mixing levels and dynamics, but the same content (defining content as the dialogue, SFX, and music).
CatBus said:
From what I've gleaned from the thread, no. We're talking different mixing levels and dynamics, but the same content (defining content as the dialogue, SFX, and music).
Cool! So, as unique content goes, it's:
TESB: (1) 80/85; (2) 93
ROTJ: (1) 83/85; (2) 93
Correct me if I'm wrong, please!
Thanks!
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
AntcuFaalb said:
CatBus said:
From what I've gleaned from the thread, no. We're talking different mixing levels and dynamics, but the same content (defining content as the dialogue, SFX, and music).
Cool! So, as unique content goes, it's:
TESB: (1) 80/85; (2) 93
ROTJ: (1) 83/85; (2) 93
Correct me if I'm wrong, please!
Thanks!
For content differences as we've defined them, I'd list them as:
SW: (1) 77 six-channel, (2) 77 stereo, (3) 77 mono, (4) 85 stereo, (5) 93 stereo
ESB: (1) 80 six-channel, (2) 80/85/93 stereo, (3) 80 mono (assuming it's similar to our 16mm mono track?)
ROTJ: (1) 83/85/93 stereo/six-channel/mono
...although we don't have much information on the ROTJ six-channel or mono mixes to say for certain if they had unique content.
Interesting! I (mistakenly) thought that the '93 TESB and ROTJ mixes had some different content.
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
AntcuFaalb said:
Interesting! I (mistakenly) thought that the '93 TESB and ROTJ mixes had some different content.
That might not be a mistake. I have always shied away from the 93 mixes because of the changes in Star Wars, so I don't know them as well (even though I'm the first to admit they actually sound very good).
Certainly if all of the 93 mixes are all based on the 70mm multitrack mixes, there'd be room for the differences on the 70mm Empire mix to make their way onto the 93 mix. I just don't know of any.
As far as I understood the 93 mixes do have different content in them, although a list of these fails me off the top of my head.
Teeceezy, if you have GOUT-synced PCM of the ESB 80 stereo, I would appreciate a PM.
Let's get one thing straight right now: there is no such thing as '85 mixes of ESB and RotJ.
I'll say it again: ESB and RotJ were never remixed in 1985.
How do I know this? Because a while back Darth Mallwalker sent me samples taken from many different pre-1993 laserdiscs, and try as I might I could discern no significant audible differences between them whatsoever.
I did observe the same phenomenon earlier mentioned here, which is that the waveforms sometimes look rather different from each other, but there are explanations for that which have nothing to do with remixing, and everything to do with the properties of analogue audio. In addition to making new video masters, they seem to have gone back to the source tapes and copied them again every time a new home video release was made, and it is indisputable that no two analogue recordings are ever going to be exactly the same as each other. The reasons for this are plentiful, including small variations in the speed of the tape machine during playback, imperfections in the physical nature of the tape and how it may shift over time, the fidelity of the electronics inside the recording equipment and how that may change over time, the fact that tape compresses transients and adds harmonic distortion when recorded at higher levels, and other things of that nature.
Additionally, early analogue-to-digital converters were less accurate than what is used today and may have introduced alterations of their own into the sound. The result of all this is that no two copies will show identical results when looked at in a waveform editor, even though they are obviously still the same mix and the actual audible differences between them are quite subtle. Going purely on listening to the stereo balance and mix levels, I find no reason at all to think that any kind of remixing of the latter two films was ever performed until 1993. All versions showed the same overall dynamic range and had been panned inwards in a similar fashion to the '77 stereo mix of SW, which I'm certain was to minimize crosstalk in the surround channel when upmixed. No version showed the full width stereo spread that the '85 version of SW contains; for ESB and RotJ this kind of imaging can only be found in the '93 mixes.
Speaking of the '93 versions, there is no real reason to avoid them, because unlike the first movie there aren't any sound effects additions. ESB is missing the snowspeeder crash sound for some reason (I reinserted this for my 5.1 track), and RotJ may have its music mixed slightly lower than the original sometimes (I'll have to check this more thoroughly to be sure about it), but on the whole the huge dynamic increase is certainly worthwhile and they both 'feel' authentic; though unlike SW they were not taken from their respective 70mm versions and aren't quite the same as what those would have been.
Thanks, hairy_hen, that helps a lot. So depending on what you think of the snowspeeder crash sound, the ESB '93 mix could be considered as containing different content. Technically it's different, but not enough to make me care.
BTW, in a way, I do listen to the '93 mixes, via your purist 5.1 mixes. I just had more faith in you to get things right, for example the snowspeeder crash ;)
So our updated list of different-content mixes is:
SW: (1) 77 six-channel, (2) 77 stereo, (3) 77 mono, (4) 85 stereo, (5) 93 stereo
ESB: (1) 80 six-channel, (2) 80 stereo, (3) 80 mono (assuming it's similar to our 16mm mono track?), (4) 8mm mono, (5) 93 stereo (same as 80 stereo except missing snowspeeder crash SFX)
ROTJ: (1) 83/93 stereo/six-channel/mono
...with the caveat that we don't have much info on the ROTJ six-channel or mono tracks and could get surprised by some new mix content at some later date. And the ESB mono story could prove to be much more complicated, if the theatrical mono mix matches neither the 16mm or 8mm in content, which is certainly a possibility.
I can also confirm that '85 mixes were not done for TESB and ROTJ.
In completing GOUT syncs for the JSC and '92 Japanese fullscreen sets this week, I confirmed that they contain nearly identical soundtracks. Not digitally identical, but clearly the same mix, as they stay in nearly perfect sync over the course of the entire two films.
I have also compared with the original US fullscreen releases of Jedi (CLV, digital and analog tracks) and Empire (CAV, analog only) and can confirm that they are the same mix as well.
If I had some gum, I’d chew a hole into the sun…
Well, now I want to have your synced ESB 93 mix, Teeceezy, because I want to hear the sound of a snowspeeder not crashing. *shakes fist at universe*
Interesting. I wonder why they did the remix in 1985 for SW, but not for ESB and ROTJ?
SpilkaBilka said:
Interesting. I wonder why they did the remix in 1985 for SW, but not for ESB and ROTJ?
I've always felt that the SW '85 mix was their attempt to reconcile the three theatrical mixes, since the mono mix seemed to get a lot of love, but the future was clearly stereo. The other films either didn't have multiple mixes to reconcile (ROTJ), or nobody liked any parts of the mono mix better than the stereo mix (ESB), so they just stuck with the stereo mix.
The only thing unique to the mono mix that made it into the 1985 mix was the tractor beam line though, right?
Can't remember anymore, but I think so. But I believe hairy_hen has postulated elsewhere that the 85 mix is based on some master that's earlier-generation than either the stereo or six-track mixes, so it's not just a matter of putting one bit of the mono mix into the otherwise untouched stereo mix--but the result was (to me) a lot like a mashup of the various original mixes.
hairy_hen said:Speaking of the '93 versions, there is no real reason to avoid them, because unlike the first movie there aren't any sound effects additions. ESB is missing the snowspeeder crash sound for some reason...
In that case, it would be good to have 2.0 PCM of the '93 mix with the sound of the snowspeeder crash restored.
Chewtobacca said:
hairy_hen said:Speaking of the '93 versions, there is no real reason to avoid them, because unlike the first movie there aren't any sound effects additions. ESB is missing the snowspeeder crash sound for some reason...
In that case, it would be good to have 2.0 PCM of the '93 mix with the sound of the snowspeeder crash restored.
I'll second this request. That would be great!
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
Chewtobacca said:
hairy_hen said:Speaking of the '93 versions, there is no real reason to avoid them, because unlike the first movie there aren't any sound effects additions. ESB is missing the snowspeeder crash sound for some reason...
In that case, it would be good to have 2.0 PCM of the '93 mix with the sound of the snowspeeder crash restored.
Isn't that pretty much what hairy_hen's ESB purist mix (stereo version) was? I'm happy with the upmixed version.