Who says THX 1138 is a niche film? Thomas Schrantz (A.K.A. Redbeard Math Pirate) knows about it:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/redbeardmathpirate/4255551875/in/photostream/
"Parts of THX-1138 were filmed in the Frank Lloyd Wright designed Civic Center in Marin, CA, although it was heavily modified through special effects, especially in the Director's Cut. [Taken on March 12, 2009] [Civic Center, San Rafael, CA, US] [Canon PowerShot S2 IS]"
I've given thought to some sort of supplement showing the shooting locations as they are today. I even know where the final scene was shot, but finding the exact spot will take some effort.
Where were you in '77?
Spaced Ranger said:
Well that was a nice read -- the thread, that is. :) Here a few thoughts about it:
In keeping with the idea that this is a laserdisc preservation, it would seem best just to get the best capture, with any processing to minimize laserdisc/capture glitches, and put it on DVD for convenient play.
Is there anything else on the laserdisc to include? It would be nice to include scans of all the paper distributed with and around the laserdisc.
Thereafter, someone could do a restoration using this and/or other versions (there have been many). "Coilly" shouldn't be considered a "laserdisc glitch", as it shows up on other releases. Likewise, the edge enhancement. Fixing such belongs in a movie restoration. So, one step at a time.
A few non-laserdisc extras would be: language subtitles (including one from the creative Italian cut); "altered & missing shots/scenes" from a previous version on a TV-distribution 16mm print; and any TV ads/bumpers of the movie around the same time of this version's general release.
The DVD case artwork should be reminiscent of the laserdisc design. However, as that design is fairly ugly-looking, a focus on the robot policeman portrait would be an improvement. Also, I like the idea of a minimalistic DVD menu -- so think lots of white.
Once msycamore hands off the project resources, I'll know more of what he has for inclusion. In the meantime, I'll work on 2 snippets from the 16mm.
I need to get on photgraphing that vintage newspaper supplement with the Lucas interview from '71.
I asked bobgarcia about restoring the only copy we have of the 1978 reissue trailer a long time back.
The official DVD website has some nice graphics one could *borrow*.
Where were you in '77?
SilverWook said:
I need to get on photgraphing that vintage newspaper supplement with the Lucas interview from '71.
Do you mean ... THX 1138 - Made in San Francisco (American Cinematographer, 1971) ... in the George Lucas Interviews book?
http://books.google.com/books?id=P2P7pwHeZSkC&pg=PA8
A good quote to keep in mind from manic-revisionist George Lucas (1971): "... with minor exceptions, THX came out pretty much as I had visualized it ..."
What I refer to is one of those tabloid style magazines usually included in the Sunday paper. The sort of thing few people thought to save. The article was only a couple pages long.
It was a lucky ebay find from someone liquidating another person's collection. There were other items that related to early Lucasfilm productions pre SW, IIRC.
Thanks for the AC link though!
Where were you in '77?
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
Impressive!
Hi, Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda! I'm using your quote from a year ago in case the forum flags posters of replies (if apparently not, I'll just alert you with a PM).
I'm going over your sample 16mm-transfer clips made some time back for msycamore. He was having trouble with syncing the video/audio and posted it's re-mux, which also ran fast.
I initially noticed that the video portion was identified in Media Player Classic: Homecinema as "Video: DVSD 720x480 29.97fps 28771Kbps". Of course this video was a film capture that should've been running at 24 frames per second or "23.98fps" in the video. Setting it to film mode in an Avisynth script ...
vid001 = OpenDMLSource( "bits.avi" ).AssumeFPS( "ntsc_film" )
... brought it down to it's proper speed. As the .ZIP file I received was the original one from you (I'm guessing), I was wondering if you could describe your transfer procedure and what software you used to get the video into this final state.
msycamore mentioned that the corresponding audio clips were captured separately. These, in the MPC:H player, were identified as "Audio: PCM 48000Hz stereo 1536Kbps". However, when I tried to sync the longest running dialogue clip (about 1½ minutes), the video could not keep up with the audio -- starting in-sync and ending significantly out-of-sync. There wasn't any obvious double-frame-captures to explain it (and there would have to be quite a few for this bad of a problem). So I tried setting the audio at a lower rate ...
aud002 = WAVSource( "audioBit2.wav" ).AssumeSampleRate( 47650 )
... to stretch it out over the length of the video (but not exactly -- I adjusted it by trial-and-error). Then, of course, it remained in-sync over the entire the clip. So, again, please describe your procedure and software for preparing the audio.
One thing I did find (and I will go over the video, frame by frame, to look for more anomalies) was what appears to be an "impossible capture" of misaligned-fields in an interlaced frame (!):
This would indicate a bug in the transfer/processing software. (It may affect the frame count, though probably not enough for this sync problem.) You might want to check into it.
One other thing I noticed was the periodic lightening/darkening of the opening titles' blank background. Could it be some kind of AC hum varying the projector brightness, which is caught at various points by the camera capture? If so, that would be a major design flaw in the hardware -- which then might need a power regulator for the light. Or it could be just this print. You might want to test your equipment with a length of uniformly dark leader.
Sort of nice to see I wasn't going crazy when it came to the difficulty syncing the 16mm audio after all. I don't believe Puggo is following this thread so PM is indeed the way to go to get his attention on this I think. It's damn weird that the audio goes so much out of sync on such a short clip, hopefully Puggo can help us sort it all out.
SilverWook, do you still have those original Radio Spots posted on starwars.com? When going through my THX stuff I couldn't find them. :( If you saved them, can you please upload them for us, thanks.
We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.
Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com
I have no idea. I'll have to dig into the external HD with everything off my old laptop to check.
Are you sure the internet archive doesn't have that page cached?
Where were you in '77?
Can't find them anywhere on my drives, I guess I never actually downloaded them. I do have the 1978 reissue trailer.
Archive.org has the page, but the download links don't work. :(
Weird that the specific particular blog entry about the THX ads has vanished from the official site. I dug pretty far back into their archives, and it's gone.
If all else fails, we just have to nab that pesky record next time it pops up on Ebay.
Where were you in '77?
Damn, this is pretty damn clumsy. I think I lost them in a HD-crash I had some years ago but... damn! THXita or Leo did you save them?!
We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.
Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com
@ msycamore
PM sent to Puggo. Yes, interesting that the 2nd audio needed to stretch an extra ¾ second to stay in sync during clip-section-2 (1min:33sec). A mistaken assignment of numbers -- 23.98 / 29.97 fps, 48000 / 44100 Hz -- wouldn't account for that small an error.
@ SilverWook
I searched around, too. Even YouTube. Nothing ... not even once-there/now-deleted. (Who's been scrubbing this Internet anyway?)
Sorry I've been off the forum for the past 2 or 3 weeks -- crazy busy at work and it's going to be like that until late December.
AUDIO: Capture of the video is frame by frame using the workprinter, so it should be rock-steady. However, the audio was captured by running the movie through a normal 16mm projector (in this case an Eiki), and just routing the speaker output directly into a DAT recorder. Thus any wavering of the old projector will be reflected in the captured audio. Your having to do a lot of manual work to sync the two comes as no surprise to me, as that is exactly what I had to do for PG and PSB.
MISALIGNED FRAME: I'm not 100% sure what it is, but I think I know what it probably is. Setting up the Workprinter requires aligning the motor with the camera/computer setup, otherwise frame capture can happen during frame transition. I was very careful to align it with my chain as best as I could, and have not seen any frame-transition captures (which usually appear as streaks but can appear as other anomolies depending on where during the transition it happens to grab the frame). My best guess is that this is a frame capture that happened a hair too early (or late), just as the frame was starting to move (or just before it stabilized), and resulted in a double image. Hopefully there aren't many of them?
"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars
I just realized I didn't answer one of your questions. The software that assembles the video from the captured frames is called Cinecap. It is essentially claymation software adapted for use with the Workprinter. It also does pulldowns. It is hard for me to believe that it could misalign the fields.
It also occurred to me that one of the causes of the alignment issue with respect to the syncronization of the film advancement and the image grab, could be a damaged sprocket hole.
"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
... could be a damaged sprocket hole.
I only noticed one of these when playing the clips (over & over), but hadn't considered the mechanical aspect of it. That's good, as it would mean the frames are all there and such a misaligned frame could be easily reconstructed.
Have you noticed the rhythmic, slight, bright/dim variation in your other captures like I observed here? It can be seen on any steady background that stays on screen long enough to pick up on it. (That's why my earlier sample-frame color correction was not stable across even individual shots.)
I wonder if a luminance correction or a de-flicker would work on that?
I haven't looked into those yet. If they can properly handle what looks like a 1½ second peak-to-peak (dim-to-bright or bright-to-dim) variation, that would be great.
Another thought would be to try the free DaVinci Resolve Lite program (in another system -- the one I'm using can't handle it), noted back in the Song Of The South thread, for it's luminance stabilization.
Since it is cyclical, I might try a 36-frame manual adjustment (and reversed) repeated across the timeline. Hmmm ...
Could the light/dark cycle coincide with the circumference of the reel? If so, it could be an artifact of aging, if the reel ever sat on a warm surface for an extended period, for example. That I have seen before, but I don't recall if this movie had it.
"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars
I just tested AntiFlicker and DeFlicker plugins for Avisynth. Neither can properly handle a shot with anything moving in and/or out of frame (like the opening, scrolling titles). Even mostly static shots (like the long-shot of the boy walking toward SEN) continued to fluctuate. I would expect the commercial product DaVinci Resolve Lite to be "smarter", but I can't test it to discover how much better. If this problem was positional film-damage, then it wouldn't be cyclical for very long with ever decreasing circumference while unreeling. Fortunately, a semi-manual solution wouldn't be too burdensome.
Only these small sections will be included as "interesting extras" for this preservation. A short video presentation of the differences would be nice, something like this (rough mock-up):
and this:
If we have a better guess on when the "missing scene" disappeared, the above date will be corrected. Feel free to chime in.
Depending on extra disc space, the full-size 16mm clips would be included, sprocket holes and all.
It's unlikely it's a broadcast print, (except for the third reel) as even partial nudity was not going to be shown on broadcast tv.
You are going to restore the original WB/Kinney logo myscamore has worked on to match the LD?
Where were you in '77?
For what it's worth, Spaced Ranger, I think luminance stabilizing has to be done on a shot by shot basis. Iirc, that's what Antcufaalb said when we were working on some other 16mm projects. Maybe he'll pop in here and give us some more info...
ww12345 said:
For what it's worth, Spaced Ranger, I think luminance stabilizing has to be done on a shot by shot basis. Iirc, that's what Antcufaalb said when we were working on some other 16mm projects. Maybe he'll pop in here and give us some more info...
This is true.
The easiest way to do it is to lock the brightness+contrast of a shot to that of its first frame.
(Now, this might screw up a shot of–for instance–a flickering lightbulb, but that's a different story...)
A certain program that ends in "clean" does this rather well.
A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.
I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!
—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3
Spaced Ranger said:
Only these small sections will be included as "interesting extras" for this preservation.
Don't forget the '78 re-release trailer (it's low quality but kind of neat) and the 4 original 1971 Radio Spots, it turned out I had saved them on one of my external disks after all. :) I got some material besides this that might make for potential extras but I guess you'll have to decide what to do with it when you receive the stuff. To get a watchable copy of the true film out there is what's most important IMO.
Spaced Ranger said:
If we have a better guess on when the "missing scene" disappeared, the above date will be corrected. Feel free to chime in.
All English home video versions of the film from 1982 - 1995 lack this extended footage (including the revisionist-cut from 2004). If it was present in the original theatrical run in '71 and omitted for the '78 re-release we cannot tell for sure. It's present in the Italian and German TV-broadcasts as well, SilverWook's 16mm print also shares the same weird editing differences in the middle of the film (reordering of scenes) as those two broadcast versions.
SilverWook said:
It's unlikely it's a broadcast print, (except for the third reel) as even partial nudity was not going to be shown on broadcast tv.
I don't know how this stuff worked on US broadcast TV back in the day or these days for that matter but as it shares those same weird editing differences with the other broadcast versions, is there a possibility it could have been down to the TV-network to decide what to show and what not to show of the prints?
We want you to be aware that we have no plans—now or in the future—to restore the earlier versions.
Sincerely, Lynne Hale publicity@lucasfilm.com
A tv network could probably make it own awkward cuts to a film in the old days. I saw plenty of films mangled just to tone them down for broadcast back in the day. Nudity would either be totally cut, or the frame would be heavily zoomed in to crop the offending body parts.
By the 80's, directors would often plan ahead, and shoot alternate footage or blur out the naughty bits optically. Blue Thunder and The Shining are good examples of this.
It's too bad that other 16mm auction got away, it was clearly labelled as a tv print.
And praise Ohm you found those radio spots! :)
Where were you in '77?
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
... the light/dark cycle ... I have seen before, but I don't recall if this movie had it.
BTW, thanks for weighing in on this. I was afraid it might've been like picking up the beat when filming under fluorescent light.
SilverWook said:
It's unlikely it's a broadcast print, (except for the third reel) as even partial nudity was not going to be shown on broadcast tv.
I don't know about that. Those 2 TV broadcasts, from which I posted snapshots during our early color correction tests, dealt with it:
<-- unretouched capture
.. and zoom-ins in the white-prison intimacy sequence.
TV broadcast content was shipped out to the stations on 16mm. Thankfully, brave someones held onto them ... for posterity sake! GL revisionism foiled again!
You are going to restore the original WB/Kinney logo myscamore has worked on to match the LD?
I don't have most of the project sources yet. Of course, a preservation will have what's actually on the laserdisc to be preserved. My rough mock-ups were just to compare it to a positive ID'ed previous version (whatever version number that might be, LOL) in the 16mm -- sorry if that made for any confusion.
All the extras msycamore has already (plus whatever else comes up) will be bundled with the preservation. I even thought of trying DVD's alternate view function to put some of it in the movie stream. But that's new territory to me. I don't want to get stuck on it if it won't show smoothly, or if it will make for a problematic source-extraction for future restoration projects. Such additions will be in the extras part anyway.
msycamore said:
Don't forget the '78 re-release trailer (it's low quality but kind of neat) and the 4 original 1971 Radio Spots ...
Definitely, and congrats on tracking down those radio spots!
Did I mention I hate hard drive crashes? :)
All English home video versions of the film from 1982 - 1995 lack this extended footage ... SilverWook's 16mm print also shares the same weird editing differences in the middle of the film (reordering of scenes) as those two broadcast versions.
I just found something else while writing this up and referencing those (U.S.) TV broadcasts. Just before the SEN-missing-scene, Silverwook's fullscreen print (19??) has the children playing rats-in-the-maze with snap-pans to show them all running around. The TNT fullscreen cablecast (1995, without the SEN-missing-scene) does not pan during that shot -- it's locked at a single position.
Yet another version? (At least, a different fullscreen printing for the version-mix.) :O
ww12345 said:
For what it's worth, Spaced Ranger, I think luminance stabilizing has to be done on a shot by shot basis.
I was afraid of that.
AntcuFaalb said:
The easiest way to do it is to lock the brightness+contrast of a shot to that of its first frame. ... A certain program that ends in "clean" does this rather well.
Mister Clean?
I know he does Windows. But does he do Mountain Lion?
BTW, your PM inbox is full. So ...
... if you are doing the THX 1138 LD capture(s) any time soon -- which I expect will be the best ever -- could that one, with our extras, be the combined project? And no problem if you want to do the final construction.
If not, I'll continue with SilverWook's excellent captures. But I had to ask, for the obvious reason of why we're here. :)