ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss! — Page 19

Ryan McAvoy said:

Bingowings said:

He leads the run through Force of will.

Wedge and Biggs are both clearly lacking in confidence after the death of so many comrades

You are imagining things that aren't in the film to cover over the flaws (Not that I give a toss about those flaws myself). Luke leads the run because Red Leader says...

"Luke take reds 2 and 3, wait up here for my signal to make your run"

Hang on?!? A minute ago Red Leader was questioning Luke's ability to fly an X-Wing and is only reasured about his abilities when Red3 (Biggs) tells him he's okay. You have to assume he trusts Biggs' opinion from past missions, otherwise he'd be asking Biggs the same question. Then he's putting Luke in charge of Red3, a man he trusts?!?

And of course you are assuming that hanger bay exposition scene is in the film. Because for the first 20 years of Star Wars it wasn't. Unless you are saying that the SE is the definitive SW?*

*(;-) joking... thems fightin' words!)

All that aside, my general point is ROTJ has illogical things and so do the other two films. Lando saying the line...

"Someone must have told them about my little maneuver at the Battle of Taanab"

...is all the info we need in ROTJ, just as Luke saying...

"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than two meters"

...is all we need in ANH to establish his pilot credentials.

Whether the exposition scene is in there or not, it still affects the scenes that come afterward, because for everyone involved in the production it's still "in" when the movie was shot. One reason why whittling a film down in the editing room can lead to story problems.

All the old geezers like me who grew up with the Marvel comic probably subconsciously insert the cut scenes where needed. ;)

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

I can see it making sense that Red Leader would let Luke fly when the planet they are defending is about to be blown up but not making sense to send a gold, loud, fussy butlerdroid into a bunker siege situation on a green planet.

 

C3PO being part of the mission comes down to one simple thing. There is only one simple "if" involved and that is if Solo decided so (he was strike team leader). Judging from some of his past decisions (foolish charge on Strormtroopers, not paying Jabba for 3 years, etc.), it is not too hard to believe he approved this one too.

On the other hand, Luke flying X-wing has tons of complicated "if"s: if rebels had a spare X-wing, if rebels really didn't have spare pilots to fly it (highly unlikely), if rebel command is willing to take some unknown farm boy, if Luke's "crop duster" management skill is anywhere near sufficient to handle an "F-16", and so on.

Do we really know it's three years between SW and ESB? It also might have been difficult to skirt increased Imperial traffic to fly directly to Tatooine, and pay Jabba off in the wake of the DS being destroyed.

The Rebels favoring secret bases in places far from civilization is another factor too. I doubt Han could just mail Jabba a check. There likely isn't a trustworthy third party that could get the loot to the Hutt, either.

What actually became of the money the rebels paid Han is a mystery. (Outside the Marvel comic anyway.) I guess Luke showing up with the money to exchange for Han wasn't considered as exciting.

At that point Luke probably has more confidence than Biggs and Wedge since the senile old squadron leader just put the rookie in charge as his last dying wish, over the two of them. Luke's ego would be soaring and Biggs and Wedge would just be left feeling deflated, inadequate and unable to understand what they did so wrong?

xD

Bingowings said:

Look they are just jealous because the voices talk to him.

LMAO

Would love to see the scene between the hanger bay jubilations and the medal ceremony where everyone comes down from their high and General Dodonna asks Luke...

"So what was that business with you switching off your targetting computer?"

and Luke says...

"A voice in my head told me to"

General Dodonna whispers to one of his aides...

"Don't write that bit down, if the press get hold of it, it could seriously damage our financial support in the Atheist star systems"

Bingowings said:

Threepio is Luke's property and like Han is attached to the Falcon, Luke is attached to Threepio.

Han could have kept the door shut on the droid but for a small bit of added effort he salvaged the droid from certain doom.

That's not the same as deliberately bringing him on a mission in a forest where his skills wouldn't seem to be useful (though they do turn out to be) and where his physical appearance and personality would be an impediment to success.

The stormtroopers were inside Hoth base at that time. By going back to pick up the useless robot, Han directly risked his life. Plus he had completely no use in ESB (yes he did tell the hyperdrive was broken but that didn't really help in any way). At least by brining him on Ednor he didn't directly risk his life and 3PO turned out to be crucial to rebel success on Ednor.

If this wasn't a fantasy film, 3PO would be painted and wearing camouflage. But this is Star Wars we are talking about. You have to turn a blind eye sometimes otherwise the primary thing that should bother you is the unrealistic homogeneous gravity field on all ships.

Bingowings said:

Alderaan has no weapons, they may buy them on the black market and funnel them to the Alliance but they would have to be hand me downs or in rare cases (like the Tydirium) stolen imperial equipment.

Anyone capable of making fighters would be nationalised by the Empire.

It wasn't just Alderaan who was supporting the rebels. Clearly they had many supporters, judging from imperial officer's conversations (Tagge, Jir).

And it is not like rebels bought out a star fighter factory on stock market lol. They secretly hired engineers and build their own factory hidden somewhere safe.

Too bad the Wampa subplot got cut, as Threepio removing the warning sign on the door where they're cooped up has a great payoff.

It only took a few seconds for Han to come back and get Threepio anyway. Better than having to tell Luke later he left him behind.

The door opening scene is what I refer to, he had to have turned back a moment to open the door?

I'm pretty sure he grabbed Threepio by the arm when he said "Come on!"? It might be a little hard to see it though...

So I guess it's just me but it seems that there's so much over complication going on here about Luke's credibility. It's very simple and already in the original presentation of the Star Wars film.

Ben Kenobi mentions Luke's Father being a good pilot. We can assume he's a good pilot too. Luke goes on the journey to rescue Princess Leia. Leia knows Ben, goes with Luke(and Han) after being told that they're with Ben. Leia sees Ben die and Luke being devastated. Luke obviously knew Ben pretty well. Luke demonstrates his shooting ability upon their escape. It's not out of the question that Leia vouched for his credibility upon arrival. Maybe even under the assumption that Ben taught him to fly.

Boom simple, the original film already has a good enough reason for why Luke was allowed to join the space battle. No need to over complicate things with the EU, SE, radio drama stuff.

Luke is part of the successful rescue of the Princess and the Death Star plans. At that point he's not just some farm boy.

Just because Han bickers with Threepio doesn't mean he hates him and wants him to die. I used to have fierce arguments with my brother at every available oportunity (Some I'm sure about Star Wars lol) growing up but I'd still go into a burning building to save him. Han would easily risk his life to save Threepio as he's one of 'the gang'.

Bingowings said:

Which took about the same amount of time it would have taken to walk passed him.

Passed him? Han was in front of him. He already went toward the ship while 3PO was locked out. He came back when 3PO was knocking on the doors. It may take him only 15 seconds, but that's a lot considering the situation.

Bingowings said:

You like Return Of The Jedi and the PT more than most. There's no crime in it.

I like ROTJ about the same as anyone else (my reference is IMDb score). It is you who likes it less the most. :)

As for the prequels, I don't know where are you got that idea. My signature should be a good clue how much I like the prequels.

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

You like Return Of The Jedi and the PT more than most. There's no crime in it.

I like ROTJ about the same as anyone else (my reference is IMDb score). It is you who likes it less the most. :)

As for the prequels, I don't know where are you got that idea. My signature should be a good clue how much I like the prequels.

I think Bingo's statement is about right. Generally speaking people seem to hold ROTJ in a low/lower regard.

That's why I started this thread. As a ROTJ lover I wanted to know why. I know I like ROTJ "more than most" that's the point.

Ryan McAvoy said:

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

You like Return Of The Jedi and the PT more than most. There's no crime in it.

I like ROTJ about the same as anyone else (my reference is IMDb score). It is you who likes it less the most. :)

As for the prequels, I don't know where are you got that idea. My signature should be a good clue how much I like the prequels.

I think Bingo's statement is about right. Generally speaking people seem to hold ROTJ in a low/lower regard.

That's why I started this thread. As a ROTJ lover I wanted to know why. I know I like ROTJ "more than most" that's the point.

I love it too. I was just saying if you look at IMDb score, ROTJ is in top 100 all-time. So according to that a lot of people think it is not only good film, but a great film. I don't think you will find a better reference than IMDb to use it for "generally speaking".

Which makes Bingo's statement wrong.

Hmm what about ROTJ's final battle and ending. There are actually some fans who "want" realism and originality while at the same time would prefer to see a final rebel assault on imperial capital, ending with Emperor's destruction. That is one of the biggest contradictions I have ever heard. Poor rebels attacking the imperial capital and wining is the most unrealistic ending possible, as well as the most unoriginal and banal. Every other trilogy has a dumb ending like that (LOTR, Matrix etc).

ROTJ ending is original and unique. Taking place in some remote region (unlike the usual centre of bad guys' power) and the unique, simplistic and "crude" death of the main villain are just perfect. His most trusted agent picks him up and throws him into the shaft. Again, perfect.

Well the battle is still a bit unrealistic but that is as far as we can really go with it (considering it is a fantasy trilogy). The only more realistic thing would be Emperor dying of a heart attack and the empire collapsing as a result of in-fighting.

I give up on you, Bingo. :)

Bingowings said:

Isolated forested moon CHECK

Planet Killing Space Station CHECK

Fighters wiggling through a metal Labyrinth to blow up a reactor CHECK.

Vader and Luke fighting in an industrial space with web shaped windows CHECK

Luke fights valiantly but is ultimately overwhelmed in the last minute CHECK.

Hand comes off CHECK

Someone goes down a bloody great hole in the floor CHECK.

Space station goes poof. ¡BANG!

Celebramos CHECK.

The Endor is presented in a completely different context. One of the difference is Rebels are the attacking force here. The other is that Yavin was never mentioned or implied to be remote (Dantooine was remote).

Of course there was a planet killing station. Should imps start to build refrigerators instead?

If there is a station... of course it is going to be blown up. It doesn't take genius to figure that one out.

Web shaped windows... give me a break. They seem to be common.

Hand comes off to reflect Luke taking revenge on Vader and signifies that if he will continue on his present course he will become just like him (replace him). You should stay away from stuff like this. I think it may be too deep and complex for you. :D

The two "holes" have no connection to each other. Completely unrelated. That is much like saying people wear cloths in both films...

Sorry I couldn't help myself. :D

The Yavin system is arguably well off the beaten path. You don't put your hidden rebel base inside an ancient pyramid if you're going to have tourists or locals mucking about. You also don't want any inhabited planets nearby with space traffic who could see your comings and goings, and make approaching hostiles harder to spot.

I got the impression from the ending of ESB, and the events in Jedi that the Rebel fleet has adopted a nomadic existence, not unlike the rag tag fleet in Battlestar Galactica.