ROTJ is the best Star Wars film... discuss! — Page 14

imperialscum said:

DominicCobb said:

Yes, it could have been worse. But it also could have been MUCH better.

Whether it could be better is completely subjective. I have been reading this thread and people usually don't even provide specific clues to what would make it batter in their opinion. Of those who did, the things I could agree on is to put less screen time on Ewoks and more on space battle, and having Ford and Fisher make better performances. As for the rest of the film I just don't see any room for improvements.

The biggest problem with ROTJ is the writing/editing and how the movie just drags at times. 

-The Jabba Sequence goes on WAY too long, and is frankly pretty boring.  There are so many ways they could have went about this, possibly having them inflitrate Jabba's Palace the same way they did in the Death Star where there is actually some action.  The whole sequence is the droids show up, Leia shows up with Chewy, and then Luke shows up, AND then there is some action.  And Leia just saves Han while Jabba and his buddies are sitting behind a curtain???  Why would he let his beautiful prize be freed from Carbonite that easy???

-It's not the Ewoks that bother me so much, its just another part of the movie that just drags, as it seems like Lucas was going through the motions writing this movie trying to get to 2 hours. 

There is alot wrong with the ROTJ as the movie just hasn't aged well.  The only reason it is in my collection is because SW & ESB are such great movies, it completes the trilogy.  Now don't get me wrong, there are some great parts in the movie, but there are some bad parts too that make the movie completely drag at times, and that NEVER happened in SW & ESB.  Those movie were edited perfectly. 

NeverarGreat said:

 without C-3PO translating a non-robot language (yes, this is the only movie where he is genuinely useful!).

He is sort of responsible for getting Artoo into a position where he can deliver the plans to the first Death Star and he gets Luke to his Jedi Master (well the first one).

His lack of utility in ESB is more down to the humans ignoring him telling them the hyperdrive was broken and exactly how it was broken (by talking to the Falcon).

It's funny he is useful in Jedi seeing as he blows any attempt at camouflage the Rebels bother to take in a forest environment.

Some great points raised in this thread.

I think Jedi (in terms of script-writing/ideas) was ultimately just rushed, changed on an almost daily basis, and George was utterly burned out & stressed from it all at that point, plus the divorce had taken its toll on him. He was originally going to set up Jedi with episodes 7,8 and 9 in mind, but made some 'fuck it let's just get this third chapter finished and I can forget about it' sort of vibe... It felt very rushed with some awkward things shoe-horned into the story (the other from Empire now being Leia, and Luke's Sister etc etc).

One scene I always felt would have been far more effective, and redemptive for Vader (after the truly horrific things he did in Episode III with wife strangling & kiddie slicing with a lightsaber! Still think that was a humdinger of a mistake by Lucas to make him go that far!) would have been for him to knock out Luke somehow during the dual. Face down & defeat the Emperor, much as it was filmed. Drag Luke into an escape pod and eject that.

Meanwhile the Allince is losing. Han is injured, Leia captured and about to be shot in front of him.

The space battle goes badly. Lando & the Falcon ARE destroyed trying to get to the reactor, after some heroic dog fights.

Back on the Death Star, suit malfunctioning, and with his last dying breaths, Vader relaxes, using his Force mind powers, get the pilots of his Super Star Destroyer to change direction to ram at full speed straight into the exposed area of the Death Star IIs superstructure, and into the reactor, destroying the station. Just before it hits - Vader rips off his mask. Gasps out "For my Children & Padme" and smiles. Then KAPOW! What a perfect redemptive end for Vader; killing the Emperor, saving his Son, destroying the Death Star! 

Well, I liked the idea anyways ;)))

7FN

The divorce thing itself didn't happen until late into production (Marcia did edit the film).

I guess he signed on to do a third with a wife and a ranch to organise and things started going wrong for all concerned a bit later.

I think Empire going over-budget and having to negotiate with Fox to secure the loan probably had more to do with playing safe than his marriage difficulties but I can see how the two would be related.

I haven't read all 14 pages, but here's how I see the original trilogy.

Star Wars is a cool little 70's movie, Empire is a great film that happens to be set in the Star Wars universe, and Jedi is a film of set pieces - the shape of films to come.

I love all three films, and I think they're all really different. Jedi is generally seen as the worst one, and in some ways it is. But the high points are really good. Jabba, the Emperor, speeder bike chase, Luke's confrontation and the attack on the second Death Star (I still haven't seen a better space battle).

A few other things. The shot over Chewie's shoulder as he shoots a speeder bike, Tie Interceptors, Luke deflecting a speeder bike's lasers... that bikini.

What lets it down are things like the scene between Luke and Leia, then Han and Leia. Pretty dead scenes, and Harrison Ford is terrible in this after being so great in Empire. It's like he thought "ok, it's a kids film" and didn't give anything extra. The pacing is awful whereas Empire is brilliantly paced, always pushing forward. Jedi lurches around and settles.

Anyhow, anyone who thinks that those prequels are better than Jedi are smoking crack. Seriously, those are three of the worst films ever made.

The PT is bad but there is a thick dense ground of much worse movies to dig out before you can put them in the worst films ever made strata.

If it wasn't for Mark playing Luke with all the gumption he gave the role in the previous movies ROTJ would play out much like TPM.

The tone, the pacing, the story structure and much of the imagery are nearly identical.

Bingowings said:

The PT is bad but there is a thick dense ground of much worse movies to dig out before you can put them in the worst films ever made strata.

If it wasn't for Mark playing Luke with all the gumption he gave the role in the previous movies ROTJ would play out much like TPM.

The tone, the pacing, the story structure and much of the imagery are nearly identical.

I really can't see how anything is identical. They have a completely different look to me, in terms of design... everything. That's another thing about those prequels, the ships, costumes, the overall look didn't say "Star Wars" at all. More like Babylon 5 or some cheap tv show.

Making a good film is incredibly hard, it's almost a miracle when it works, and looking at the prequels and what they had going for them: A world wide inbuilt audience, loved characters, an amazing universe all set up by the first three films. I can't think of any film that has all that going for it, a huge audience wanting to love it. What does he do?

Kill the Force. Have Darth Vader build C3-PO. Set it up that at the beginning of Star Wars Vader is on a ship with his daughter, the robot he built as a kid, above the planet he grew up on, where his son now lives... Why not make IG-88 Chewbacca's cousin?

There is nothing of the spirit of the original films in those prequels, all of which are so flat, lacking in any dynamic story telling. The acting is uniformly bad, but that's probably because it was mostly shot green screen. They're a cgi mess.

I think Star Wars ended in 1983, but each to their own.

dan76 said:

 The pacing is awful whereas Empire is brilliantly paced, always pushing forward. Jedi lurches around and settles.

When I was mentioning the pacing of the OT movies, this statement above perfectly sums up what I meant.

SilverWook said:

dan76 said:

Bingowings said:

The PT is bad but there is a thick dense ground of much worse movies to dig out before you can put them in the worst films ever made strata.

If it wasn't for Mark playing Luke with all the gumption he gave the role in the previous movies ROTJ would play out much like TPM.

The tone, the pacing, the story structure and much of the imagery are nearly identical.

 

I really can't see how anything is identical. They have a completely different look to me, in terms of design... everything. That's another thing about those prequels, the ships, costumes, the overall look didn't say "Star Wars" at all. More like Babylon 5 or some cheap tv show.

Making a good film is incredibly hard, it's almost a miracle when it works, and looking at the prequels and what they had going for them: A world wide inbuilt audience, loved characters, an amazing universe all set up by the first three films. I can't think of any film that has all that going for it, a huge audience wanting to love it. What does he do?

Kill the Force. Have Darth Vader build C3-PO. Set it up that at the beginning of Star Wars Vader is on a ship with his daughter, the robot he built as a kid, above the planet he grew up on, where his son now lives... Why not make IG-88 Chewbacca's cousin?

There is nothing of the spirit of the original films in those prequels, all of which are so flat, lacking in any dynamic story telling. The acting is uniformly bad, but that's probably because it was mostly shot green screen. They're a cgi mess.

I think Star Wars ended in 1983, but each to their own.

 

Funny thing is, Mad Magazine did an issue in the 1982 featuring Lucas' stolen notebook for future episodes, and their resemblance to the prequels is uncanny. Maybe they actually got their hands on the real thing? ;)

Read and be amazed...

http://imgur.com/a/Up1J4

Whoa, that's really strange. It's like a satire of the last four SW films - but before they came out. Which is weird because the only universe shrinking that happened in the two films that were out at the time was the revelation that SPOILER Vader is Luke's father (which actually isn't that much of a shrink because there was already a connection there).

dan76 said:

I really can't see how anything is identical. They have a completely different look to me

Both begin with a rescue sequence inter-cut with blank exposition delivered via holographic messaging.

Both feature Tatooine and it's distinctive design motif.

Both heavily feature bizarre aliens (many are carry over designs from earlier films) some of which are bargained with as part of a plan that actually makes no sense when you think about it.

The Jedi mind trick has limited success in both cases.

Both feature Jabba and Bib Fortuna and slave girls and comedy frog death.

Both have a middle act which centres on riding land vehicles at high speed through obstacles.

Both feature unnecessary costume changes from the female lead.

Both feature a dull mission brief delivered while characters blankly look in the general direction of a holographic display.

Both feature villains (arguably the more interesting characters) dying after falling into a pit (Jedi does this twice).

Both feature a ground battle/base siege/space combat/saber duel combination finale.

Both have a villain's lair going up in a generator explosion (Jedi does this three times).

Both have a comedy native swinging a weapon around and getting hurt to slapstick effect.

Fart/Burp humour.

Both have the death of a Jedi Master (arguably Qui-Gon's death makes more sense).

Both have a father figure dying from injuries lying down and looking up into the face of the victorious youngster and delivering a final request before peacefully sliding to the floor.

Both end with a funeral pyre and a victory display with fireworks launched by star fighters....

I could go on.

That is open to debate but the point I was making is that TPM is much more similar to ROTJ than some people are prepared to confess.

What lifts Jedi is the commitment of the lead actor more than anything else.

Mark never delivers a contractural obligation performance even though almost everyone else does.

The leads in TPM are as wooden (or pixelated) but largely out of bewilderment more than lack of enthusiasm.

Ian is great in both.

Actually TPM feels like (yet another) rehash of ANH. Just imagine TPM starting on Tatooine with Anakin and it's pretty much the same thing. He's the prodigy pilot on Tatooine, joins the Jedi on a big adventure, they save the girl (a royalty) while she's being held captive. they devise a plan to defeat the evil-doers and the boy, who has just begun discovering the Force blows up the enemy's battle station in space saving the day for everyone. Both end on a slightly cheesy celebration scene as well.

It's poetry, y'know.

Goosey Gander sauce.

Bingowings said:

dan76 said:

I really can't see how anything is identical. They have a completely different look to me

Both begin with a rescue sequence inter-cut with blank exposition delivered via holographic messaging.

Both feature Tatooine and it's distinctive design motif.

Both heavily feature bizarre aliens (many are carry over designs from earlier films) some of which are bargained with as part of a plan that actually makes no sense when you think about it.

The Jedi mind trick has limited success in both cases.

Both feature Jabba and Bib Fortuna and slave girls and comedy frog death.

Both have a middle act which centres on riding land vehicles at high speed through obstacles.

Both feature unnecessary costume changes from the female lead.

Both feature a dull mission brief delivered while characters blankly look in the general direction of a holographic display.

Both feature villains (arguably the more interesting characters) dying after falling into a pit (Jedi does this twice).

Both feature a ground battle/base siege/space combat/saber duel combination finale.

Both have a villain's lair going up in a generator explosion (Jedi does this three times).

Both have a comedy native swinging a weapon around and getting hurt to slapstick effect.

Fart/Burp humour.

Both have the death of a Jedi Master (arguably Qui-Gon's death makes more sense).

Both have a father figure dying from injuries lying down and looking up into the face of the victorious youngster and delivering a final request before peacefully sliding to the floor.

Both end with a funeral pyre and a victory display with fireworks launched by star fighters....

I could go on.

In this sense you're right, but it just damns TPM even more. A cynical film, delivered without any gusto or spirit compared to Jedi (and that's saying something!) that still doesn't "look"like Star Wars.

I think we're agreeing aren't we? The fact that TPM steals so poorly from the original trilogy clarify's it's awfulness doesn't it?

Got to say I almost spat my popcorn out when we watched Attack of the Clones and Obi-wan's ship hides on that rock (just like the Falcon hiding on the Star destroyer in Empire). Terrible.

Oh, and that bikini wasn't an unneccesary costume change :P

I understand you're being facetious and just asking for a rebuttal, but I really must. The ones I didn't respond to I either agree with or don't want to bother with.

Ryan McAvoy said:

- It has the best epic battle: Endor. Yavin and Hoth don't come close.

Not sure if serious. The combination of the three battles makes for something very epic, yes; but if we're talking ground battle - that's Hoth; if we're talking space battle - that's Yavin (yeah, I said it. Sometimes bigger isn't better. No suspense in the space battle in ROTJ, also it's one of three things going on).

- It's got the best use of the Falcon. Without the Falcon kickin' ass as the Rebel lead fighter in the battle of Endor it wouldn't be half as iconic. The camera work on the Falcon in ESB pales next to Jedi and the Falcon in ANH barely moves.

The Falcon's only use is by Lando in the big battle. Sure this is showier, but it's only one of many elements involved in the climax, and is therefor nothing too special.

- It's got the single most exciting chase sequence in cinema history: The speeder bike chase. A masterpiece of sound, photography, design and FX.

Obvious hyperbole, is obvious. Best chase in SW, but if you're serious beyond that you need to watch more cinema.

- It's got the best FX. If you think it doesn't, you are probably confusing memories of the SE in your head with the GOUT. Go look at the GOUT Bespin or many of the shots from the GOUT battle of Yavin.

Partly true. It does have some of the best FX. It also has some of the worst FX; e.g. the obvious matte paintings in the Rebel hangar, crappy green screen for the scene on the barge on the way to the sarlacc, etc.

- It's got the most 'scale' of the three. Epic locations, epic battles and a huge cast of diverse background characters.

Eh, I don't think so. The only planets featured are Tatooine, Dagobah, and Endor. We've already seen two of them, and Endor's easily the most boring OT planet. You might also count the Death Star, but yeah, seen that too. Battles are mostly epic, yeah. I would also argue that the cast of background characters is no huger than in the other two, and only slightly more diverse. Also, on the whole, the scale of the film is really quite smaller than one would hope. Yeah, it's larger than the other two, but not by much. This is supposedly the endgame in the war, and yet the entire battle is based around this one moon - and not even the entire moon, mind you, just this one small spot where a bunker is. Now I know how everyone here feels about the prequels, but look at ROTS. That film has an epic scale. ROTJ does not.

There are other points I'd be tempted to make, such as it has the best pacing but I'll admit that that could be argued against. F*ck it! It does! The opening to ANH is painfully slow and ESB is very static in the middle (Asteroid interlude while Luke is jogging round a swamp). Jedi's pace never lets up! xD

Yep, I get it. This one's a joke.