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What are you reading? — Page 12

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CP3S said:

Bingowings said:

Unless he becomes immortal and churns out more tales of young men fighting off the 'buggers' (the aliens in the Ender's series are called that... no really).

Wow! I had no idea they were called that. That is incredibly blatant! Everyone is always telling me even though Card is a dick, it isn't a big deal to read him because his views don't make their way into his books. Like hell!

That would be akin to naming your alien species the "darkies".

It would be good to actually read the books.  Humanity is afraid of these aliens because of their frightening insect-like appearance and their seeming relentlessness in their assaults on humanity, and thus they earned the nickname "buggers".  The entire world was scared to death of them.  Ultimately, Ender the hero learns to see the beauty and good in the creatures, and he grows to love them.  While people enjoy the book for the action, it's actually the theme of tolerance and anti-speciesism that permeates the entire series.  I don't want to tell too much, but the term "bugger" falls out of fashion with the enlightened hero, and ultimately he advocates to the rest of humanity on behalf of the species.  In the end, humans hate him for defeating the Formics (their true name), and love the defeated species, all because of Ender's advocacy on their behalf.

Orson Scott Card is a registered Democrat in spite of his largely conservative views.  Why?  Because he feels the Republican party does not do enough to oppose racism.  A quote supporting this used to be up on Wikipedia, but it appears it no longer is.  He is very anti-racist.

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CP3S said:

darth_ender said:

Oh, excuse me.  I thought this was the What are you reading? thread.  I didn't realized I'd walked into the politics thread.

*exits*

You're so very anal about topics.

Yes, I am :D

I promise, slight literary related tangents in the what are you reading thread aren't going to hurt you. They rarely ever bite and they've had loads of vaccinations.

But how can I be sure? ;)

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Mr Card is selective about his bigotry and I'm selective about what I spend my finite financial resources on.

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xhonzi said:

I'm just saying that if I said:

Sadly I paid money for work before finding out he was a gay.

That that would come across as bigotry, would it not?

 

Yes.

But that is the difference between saying, "Sadly I paid money for (someone's) work before finding out they were racist" and "Sadly I paid money for (someone's) work before finding out they were black".

See it from whatever angle you'd like. But I see a huge difference in taking issue with someone because they are something different, and taking issue with someone who has a disdain for someone because they are different.

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darth_ender said:

It would be good to actually read the books.  Humanity is afraid of these aliens because of their frightening insect-like appearance and their seeming relentlessness in their assaults on humanity, and thus they earned the nickname "buggers". 

It is just hard to take it as coincidence that the nickname for his alien species also just so happens to be a dirty word meaning "ass fucker".

That is great he was a huge opponent of racism.

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xhonzi said:

I'm just saying that if I said:

Sadly I paid money for work before finding out he was a gay.

That that would come across as bigotry, would it not?

The above example would mean book buyer X was against all gay people and because author Z has been exposed as homosexual he doesn't want to purchase his work.

I don't want to buy a specific author's work (any more) because of a specific author's verified bigotry towards all gays, a group I belong to (I would feel the same if he said similar things about blacks, Jews or women, groups I don't belong to but it seems even more bizarre that I seem to be expected by you to go out of my way and buy into the bigotry directed right at my partner, a number of my friends and myself).

One is an act of prejudice directed to a whole group the other is an act of judgement towards one person based on what he has gone on record stating to be his views.

It's the opposite of bigotry. I have read what the chap has to say for himself and come to a conclusion based on observation. He has come to a conclusion and is twisting some of his observations to conform with that prejudice.

I have attempted to steer this back to the subject of books but I am reading this thread and some of the 'out there' ideas within and so commenting on those pieces of text is on topic.... from a certain point of view.

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So yeah, Neil Gaiman's A Study in Emerald was great fun. I plan on reading the rest of his collection of short stories, Fragile Things.

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SilverWook said:

.....

LOL. Seriously. Best post of the page.

The blue elephant in the room.

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I thought you were kidding about the buggers, CP3S. Maybe you are.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Mrebo said:

I thought you were kidding about the buggers, CP3S. Maybe you are.

Jesus wept! I also thought it was a satirical joke from mr CP3S. But no, I just looked it up and the Alien's in Card's 'Ender's Game' are really called "Buggers".

I did feel really angry about the guy but after his recent article saying...

Obama wants to be like Hitler and reign over America forever by controlling the country using armed young black street gangs as his new fascist police force...

...I just thought this guy isn't merely wrong and deluded, he's actually insane and needs medical help. He's systematically destroying his own career by choice but I do feel a bit sorry for the people like Harrison in the film who are watching it all crumble around them before it even hits the boxoffice.

But anyway. I'm reading Hunter S. Thompson at the moment. His Hell's Angels reportage is stunning, gripping, beautifully written and more than a little scary. A great entry point if the crazy stream-of-consciousness from 'Fear and Loathing' puts you off his work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjgLyw41JJU

VIZ TOP TIPS! - PARENTS. Impress your children by showing them a floppy disk and telling them it’s a 3D model of a save icon.

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CP3S said:

darth_ender said:

It would be good to actually read the books.  Humanity is afraid of these aliens because of their frightening insect-like appearance and their seeming relentlessness in their assaults on humanity, and thus they earned the nickname "buggers". 

It is just hard to take it as coincidence that the nickname for his alien species also just so happens to be a dirty word meaning "*** ******".

That is great he was a huge opponent of racism.

Okay, bear in mind that the book came out in the early 80s, and was based on his own short story of the same name that came out in the 70s.  I have never heard of that expression meaning anything like that before today, nor do I know the etymology of that particular definition, but I already have my doubts that such a meaning had developed by the time that story was written.  Even if that expression did already exist, let's look at more convincing factors.  First, the aliens look like bipedal ants, which, as you likely know, are in fact "bugs".  Second, these aliens are originally meant to be frightening (not in any sexual way), but then ultimately are very sympathetic, and we learn the horrible consequences of such prejudice against these aliens.  Third, they bear no other resemblance to homosexuality in either culture or behavior.  For instance, they are organized much like an ant hill, with a queen at the head who reproduces with male drones and communicates telepathically.  I fail to see any gay analogies there.  The only other connection one might make for anti-gay propaganda is the bullying that takes place between children, one saying another's butt wiggles, and the reply from "God" that the bully is checking out a boy's butt.  Quite common as far as bullying goes and hardly a statement against being gay.

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Ryan McAvoy said:

Mrebo said:

I thought you were kidding about the buggers, CP3S. Maybe you are.

Jesus wept! I also thought it was a satirical joke from mr CP3S. But no, I just looked it up and the Alien's in Card's 'Ender's Game' are really called "Buggers".

Oh no!  Bug-like aliens are actually called "Buggers"!  See my above post please :)

I did feel really angry about the guy but after his recent article saying...

Obama wants to be like Hitler and reign over America forever by controlling the country using armed young black street gangs as his new fascist police force...

I've never read the story, but it not a statement, but rather a political fictional short story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orson_Scott_Card#Politics

...I just thought this guy isn't merely wrong and deluded, he's actually insane and needs medical help. He's systematically destroying his own career by choice but I do feel a bit sorry for the people like Harrison in the film who are watching it all crumble around them before it even hits the boxoffice.

His views are not uncommon.  Just because I don't agree with all his views doesn't mean I am in favor of gay marriage.  But just because I am against it doesn't mean I am a bigot or that I hate anyone because of their sexual preferences.  I have said several times elsewhere in this forum that I have several dear friends who are gay.  He is outspoken on his views, and I think he is ignorant on the topic and wrong, but I don't believe he is hateful.  I've heard quite a few nasty and bigoted opinions towards my religion and Christianity in general by prominent folks that never earn such a boycott.

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Now you have something new to read.

It's not his views on gay marriage that are an issue.

It's his belief that most gay people opt to be so because they have been assaulted and wish to assault others, have a insatiable sex drive and/or want to join a secret society that wishes to undermine society.

Those aren't the only reasons.

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CP3S said:

So yeah, Neil Gaiman's A Study in Emerald was great fun. I plan on reading the rest of his collection of short stories, Fragile Things.

I can highly recommend The Hound Of The D'Urbervilles by Kim Newman if you liked that one.

Just finished re-reading Dune, moving without traveling to Dune Messiah next week.

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Skip to 5.14 in this clip...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5C8IuThoWuU

...for a minute long Richard Sharpe 'Buggers' supercut! ;-)

I haven't read a Sharpe book in ages. Time to correct that I feel.

VIZ TOP TIPS! - PARENTS. Impress your children by showing them a floppy disk and telling them it’s a 3D model of a save icon.

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darth_ender said:


I have never heard of that expression meaning anything like that before today, nor do I know the etymology of that particular definition


Count me in on this one. Before today, I thought "bugger" always was used as a less antagonistic version of "jerk" or "douchebag".

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I am also one of those not well-informed on buggery.

 

 

 

If someone used it in a sentence to refer to a particular sex act, I'd really just think it was a crude way of referring to sex in general. I never knew it had that other kind of specific meaning.

There are two interpretations here:

1. Card is a learned writer who includes all kinds of layers of meaning, as writers are wont to do, and must have known what he was going in using that word.

2. Some people here are suffering from confirmation bias, assuming Card was making a sort of sly-as-a-Magic-Eye allusion to homosexuality because they think he's basically obsessed with the topic, when in it was really just a simple way for humans to term bug aliens.

As far as literary analysis goes, the first interpretation can make you feel smart because you're seeing through the layers. But it's also awfully lazy. The second interpretation may be criticized for being naive. I don't know the truth but I'm not going to assume ill intent in the use of the word "bugger" to refer to bug aliens.

All I can say is that I would never have made the connection. I've been doing a sort of personal study of Baum's Oz books. Some have argued that Baum was writing an allegory about the politics of his day, and while many colorful analogies can be drawn, it's still unfounded. I wonder if there may be an atheistic streak in Baum's writing, where the only life that matters is the one here in Kansas, however bleak and gray, rather than a fanciful world where one seeks salvation from a great being who actually isn't. And the only "salvation" that matters to our protagonist - to be back home - is obtained essentially by her rejection of that other world. The scarecrow had remarked that if people didn't have brains they'd probably all live in the beautiful places (unlike brainy Dorothy wanting to be in Kansas rather than Oz). There was also the sole bit of religion in any Oz book in which a china church steeple was broken by a swing of the lion's tail. On departing the china village, the heroes remarked that the village was unjustified in its anger since they only lost a church steeple and the hoof of a cow. Seemingly equating the two was curious to me.

Then again, these are just musings. I may be reading tea leaves. Maybe it is best to take Baum at his word that these are just fairy tales with no other real meaning.

I respect not buying something when you find the creator "evil" but it's getting nutty to be so certain that anything he wrote that might be construed a certain way must be construed that way.

The blue elephant in the room.

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What??? How have you guys never known what the word "bugger" meant? Its even made its way into American pop culture:

"Very well, where do I begin? My father was a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner from Belgium with low-grade narcolepsy and a penchant for buggery. My mother was a fifteen year old French prostitute named Chloe with webbed feet. My father would womanize, he would drink. He would make outrageous claims like he invented the question mark. Sometimes he would accuse chestnuts of being lazy."

Most people here probably recognize this quote. If not, it is Dr. Evil's speech from the first Austin Powers. I hear Americans quote that all the time. It means his dad really liked engaging in anal sex.


Less antagonistic version of jerk or douchebag??? It is a really crass word. Even Webster's American dictionaries list it as vulgar slang.

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If someone used it in a sentence to refer to a particular sex act, I'd really just think it was a crude way of referring to sex in general.

The blue elephant in the room.

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Ryan McAvoy said:

Mrebo said:

I thought you were kidding about the buggers, CP3S. Maybe you are.

Jesus wept! I also thought it was a satirical joke from mr CP3S. But no, I just looked it up and the Alien's in Card's 'Ender's Game' are really called "Buggers".

I think you and Mrebo thought I was joking on two entirely different levels.

I just learned early today from Bingo's post that Card's aliens were called buggers and was pretty shocked. You seem to see the joke as it being too unbelievable that Card would name his much hated aliens that, which is how I felt.

I think Mrebo thought the joke was me providing the definition of it, and thought I was making it up the meaning.

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Mrebo said:

If someone used it in a sentence to refer to a particular sex act, I'd really just think it was a crude way of referring to sex in general.

Well, I guess there are still people out there who don't realize "fuck" refers to sex, I ran into one sometime last year. Somehow they thought it was a really crude was of saying "to kiss".

I'm not even making this up. Ignorant people do exist.

What are we even discussing now? That since a bunch of you didn't know what the word meant, obviously Card didn't mean it in that way? Or that Card, a dude who jots down words for a living had no idea what the word meant?

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In British culture "Bugger" has almost no negative connotations anymore. It's a term of endearment if anything. The phrase...

"You daft bugger"

roughly equates to...

"You silly sausage"

(Wait, wait, bad example, maybe American's don't have that one either?) It roughly means...

"You ninny"

(Wait bad axample again!) It has the same meaning as...

"You silly sod"

(Errrm might not know that either?) Ah hah! I got how to explain it. It means the same as...

"You daft apeth"

Hope that's all much clearer now. My work here is done

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darth_ender said:

Okay, bear in mind that the book came out in the early 80s, and was based on his own short story of the same name that came out in the 70s.  I have never heard of that expression meaning anything like that before today, nor do I know the etymology of that particular definition, but I already have my doubts that such a meaning had developed by the time that story was written. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugger

Educate yourself my good fellow.

It is a very, very old word that has meant that for a very long time. Long before Card used it and long before he was ever born.

This denial you all have about it being a slur is really shocking to me.

 

If Card didn't mean to use it in that way, then he was very ignorant and made a very, very, very poor choice of words.

 

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Ryan McAvoy said:

In British culture "Bugger" has almost no negative connotations anymore. It's a term of endearment if anything. The phrase...

Dude, anywhere I've been in Brittan you could use/hear the word "cunt" just about anywhere.

Are there any words that really offend there any more?

Saying "cunt" in the States seems to make even the most vulgar mouthed of company turn a shade of red or give you a dirty look. I've been in bars at 2am surrounded by foul mouthed drunk people and have had someone approach my table and ask me and my friends to watch our language because we were calling each other "cunts".

Ninny is used in the States. At least in the North eastern portions, but usually by people in their fifties.

 

WHOA!!! And why have I never heard of that Sharpe TV series!!!! It looks really cool, and I love Sean Bean. I know what I am doing during my weekend this week!