Info: Re-mixed audio tracks on video releases — Page 10

This is the box set I have: http://www.amazon.com/The-Batman-Legacy-Feature-Length-Films/dp/B00004XMS0/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1375552777&sr=8-4&keywords=batman+legacy

It's the original individual flipper releases of all 4 films bundled together into a cardboard slip box.

Yeah, I always thought the alternate take of Vicki kissing The Joker was weird too, considering the full screen side contains the theatrical version of the scene. If I recall correctly she doesn't react with disgust after kissing the Joker's jacket and continues on as if she were actually enjoying it.

I am absolutely sure, this was documented in he late 90s/early 2000s. For example, the IMDB trivia (which has been there for years):

The Region-1 DVD actually contains two different versions of the film. The fullscreen version is the theatrical version, the widescreen version has one brief shot replaced. It is a small scene near the end at 1:14:06 just before Batman fights the Joker in the Clocktower. In the fullscreen version Vicki Vale gets a disgusted look when she kisses the Jokers jacket and pulls a lint out of her mouth, however in the widescreen version she really seems to like it.

In 2001, someone else on another forum said this:

on the DVD version, this shot is replaced with her still kissing the jacket, but she no longer looks disgusted, nor does she pull out the lint. In fact, she kinda looks "into it," for lack of a better word.

From Home Theater Forum in 2004:

on the widescreen side of the Batman DVD, the scene at the end where Vicki Vale is kissing the Joker's jacket and pulls lint off of her tongue, is changed slightly. I think it shows more kissing and she doesn't pause to remove the lint. The correct theatrical footage is on the pan 'n scan side.

And the widescreen version on the 1997 DVD was anamorphic, so unless it was an upscale, it wouldn't have been the LD master.

And from where comes this presupposition that all WB launch titles were from LD masters? I'd buy the fullscreen sides being dumped from LD, or maybe those notorious full-frame-only releases like Caddyshack, Vacation, Fierce Creatures, et. al., but I thought the anamorphic releases were supposed to be demo discs for the format, wouldn't they have thus been new masters made specifically for anamorphic?

I also can't find any mention of the "no lint" version showing up on any widescreen LD. But it most definitely was on the original widescreen DVD.

And back in 2005 someone on a forum said they had just seen a 70mm print with the same "no lint" version - I don't think they'd be making it up or misremembering. So this could have been a situation where the 70mm version was different due to the film being changed after the supposedly-locked "final" cut was sent out to the lab for blowup, much like the first cut of ESB with fewer establishing shots of the Rebel fleet, or "Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan" with no Roman numeral "II". And when the DVD master was done, WB could have accidentally pulled an IP that reflected the 70mm blowup cut.

TServo2049 said:

I am absolutely sure, this was documented in he late 90s/early 2000s. For example, the IMDB trivia (which has been there for years):

The Region-1 DVD actually contains two different versions of the film. The fullscreen version is the theatrical version, the widescreen version has one brief shot replaced. It is a small scene near the end at 1:14:06 just before Batman fights the Joker in the Clocktower. In the fullscreen version Vicki Vale gets a disgusted look when she kisses the Jokers jacket and pulls a lint out of her mouth, however in the widescreen version she really seems to like it.

In 2001, someone else on another forum said this:

on the DVD version, this shot is replaced with her still kissing the jacket, but she no longer looks disgusted, nor does she pull out the lint. In fact, she kinda looks "into it," for lack of a better word.

From Home Theater Forum in 2004:

on the widescreen side of the Batman DVD, the scene at the end where Vicki Vale is kissing the Joker's jacket and pulls lint off of her tongue, is changed slightly. I think it shows more kissing and she doesn't pause to remove the lint. The correct theatrical footage is on the pan 'n scan side.

And the widescreen version on the 1997 DVD was anamorphic, so unless it was an upscale, it wouldn't have been the LD master.

And from where comes this presupposition that all WB launch titles were from LD masters? I'd buy the fullscreen sides being dumped from LD, or maybe those notorious full-frame-only releases like Caddyshack, Vacation, Fierce Creatures, et. al., but I thought the anamorphic releases were supposed to be demo discs for the format, wouldn't they have thus been new masters made specifically for anamorphic?

I also can't find any mention of the "no lint" version showing up on any widescreen LD. But it most definitely was on the original widescreen DVD.

You know you can make any non anamorphic master anamorphic and vice versa, and this version does not exist that I know of on any format.

I have that disc somewhere and know the film by heart and I have never spotted that. That would be the worlds oddest change ever 

Their early discs anamorphic or not were of appalling quality it was not until the matrix in 99 they stepped it up.

It is well known they used the LD masters for the first discs 

I just popped in the flipper disc to 100% verify it myself and it is indeed true, Vicki does not pull lint out of her mouth with a disgusted reaction in the widescreen version on that disc.

Full Screen side of '97 flipper disc at 01:54:06:

Widescreen side of '97 flipper disc at 01:54:06:

Actually the sound does seem to be slightly different as well so as to be in sync with the alternate take. Unfortunately I have no way of playing them both side by side to compare but I would imagine that the kissing sounds would be out of sync if you were to line the track up with the lint version of the scene, I could be wrong tho but they definitely do sound different to my ears.

Is the fullscreen version only available in region 1?

FWIW I've just purchased the Batman and Batman Returns laserdiscs with PCM stereo. I'll certainly be capturing and syncing the first (since it reflects the excellent theatrical Dolby Stereo) but not too sure whether to bother with Returns - presumably the DVD 5.1 is a better representation of the theatrical mix in this case (it having been Dolby Digital to begin with). Thoughts?

Even though returns was the first offical dolby digital soundtrack I think the dolby stereo surround is still worth saving/preserving as that would of been the way most people would of heard it in the theater at the time. Dolby digital was new and hadn't reached market penetration yet (although it quickly did). At the end of the day it is probably closer to the original theatrical mix then anything else (although that's a guess).

PDB said:

Even though returns was the first offical dolby digital soundtrack I think the dolby stereo surround is still worth saving/preserving as that would of been the way most people would of heard it in the theater at the time. Dolby digital was new and hadn't reached market penetration yet (although it quickly did). At the end of the day it is probably closer to the original theatrical mix then anything else (although that's a guess).

As I understand it the DS mix from Returns was a fold down from the original 5.1

captainsolo said:

I always heard the missing lint shot was just an error. I'll have to check mine out.

These are all LD masters, same print defects, same slightly tweaked video levels for older CRTs; the DVDs just give you a better quality video presentation.

The first film needs a capture badly as none of the remixes touch it. In fact, it would be possible to make a 5.1 recreated 70mm mix because I'm pretty sure the audio was the same. (4 channel with baby booms)

Returns is the same mix in 5.1 and DS. However the emphasis and soundstaging is very different. The 5.1 utilizes the discrete channels to good effect, but the DS is much more centralized and gives a better sense of low end, as is the case with Batman Forever's 5.1 vs. DS. Additionally 99.9% of people heard Dolby Stereo theatrically as only 11 theaters were equipped to show Dolby SR-D 5.1 at the time. Judging sonically, they really mixed for Dolby Stereo before getting the go-ahead for a 5.1 mix.

As I thought, glad I was not going nuts 

I was never a fan of the remixed Jaws and Terminator. I owned them on VHS before DVD and so was exposed to the original mixes. The first DVD of Terminator I got was the 1997 Image Entertainment release. A few years later I got the 2001 Special Edition DVD and wasn't fond of the 5.1 remix. Fortunately the original mono was included but in my opinion the IE DVD sounded much better. Gunshots were much louder. I got the 25th Anniversary Jaws DVD during Christmas 2002 and was disappointed to learn that the 5.1 remix, which I had already loathed at this point since i had previously gotten the 25th Ann. VHS, was the default mix and the original was not included. Come 2005 I learn about the 30th Ann. DVD. While it was neat to learn about some new features like the photo journal and full 2 hour doc., the real selling point for me was that the original mono track would be included. This has been my preferred release ever since. I don't own a Blu ray player so obviously don't have that release. However I will pick it up if I ever do get a player and I am aware that the mono is included on that release. I am disappointed however to know that none of the BD releases of Terminator don't include the mono which I really consider a loss. It's not just those films. Grease has a pretty bad remix as well and the original is not included on any of the DVD/BD releases. It's not just remixing! Some releases just sound better than others. I have the Image Entertainment DVDs of Robocop and they sound better in my opinion than the MGM releases. Nothing was changed but sound wise the old DVDs sound better I feel. I even purchased Robo off itunes a few years back and that version sounds better than the MGM DVD in my opinion.

skyjedi2005 said:

So not only can i not find the mono mix for dirty harry on the blu ray, Now i find Bullitt is also missing its original mono mix.  Is this a kind of trend?

 

 

the average joe doesn't give a damn about original mixes. studios oblige and release 5.1/7.1 upmixes. luckily some studios see that it's time to revert that whole bs and include the original mixes. fox has shown a turn around for that matter. they even include lossless mono mixes on newer releases, e.g. brubaker. hopefully more studios will follow. especially universal and warner need to change their way of treating movie mixes.

I'd also like to mention a few sound bits from various films that are heard in only some video releases. In Willy Wonka when Charlie and Grandpa sing the Godlen Ticket song the mother interupts at the end. I have the 1994 VHS and she says 'Wait! Stop!'. All versions I've seen from the 1996 VHS onward she just says 'Stop!'. I have the 1991 Fullscreen VHS and 1995 Letterboxed VHS of Jaws. After Chrissie meets her demise we see a wave wash over the drunk guy. On the VHS you can hear him burp. You can't hear this on none of the DVDs regardless if you're watching it with the 5.1 or the mono. Also when the boom holding the cage snaps and almost hits Brody, you can hear him go 'Ahhh'. This is drowned out on the DVD in both mixes. In Frankenstein (1931), theres the scene where the two doctors go down to the cellar and discover the Monster has killed the Hunchback. When they storm down the stairs you can hear the Monster growl. On my VHS and even the 1999 DVD the growl echoes. On the 2004 and 2006 DVDs and the Blu Ray the echoe is gone. I should also like to mention that I compared the VHS and Blu Ray audios of Frankenstein and clarity wise I think my VHS sounds better.

crissrudd4554 said:

In Willy Wonka when Charlie and Grandpa sing the Godlen Ticket song the mother interupts at the end. I have the 1994 VHS and she says 'Wait! Stop!'. All versions I've seen from the 1996 VHS onward she just says 'Stop!'.

The 1996 restoration was when the film's soundtrack was remixed to stereo/5.1 - before then, the film was only ever in mono. The 1994 VHS was the last one to have the original mono mix.

The 1991 laserdisc (with the original poster art) has the mono mix in digital PCM.

It really confuses me when older movies have alterations in their mono tracks. It happened with The Wizard of Oz, it happened with Frankenstein, it happened with Dracula. I think it's because due to the age of these films, the mono tracks are now restorations/reassemblies, not just direct transfers of an original mono element.

Does anyone have an English mono mix of the Good, Bad, and Ugly synced to the Mondo BD? I was considering burning myself a copy with the synced English surround audio, but, naturally, mono PCM would be of course preferable.

The Aluminum Falcon said:

Does anyone have an English mono mix of the Good, Bad, and Ugly synced to the Mondo BD? I was considering burning myself a copy with the synced English surround audio, but, naturally, mono PCM would be of course preferable.

I have both but not synced. It is a lot of work since there are a lot of pieces that are changed. Besides the Italian scene additions, the torture scene is changed around and there are a few seconds here and there that are added. I hope to work on it one day as I have a lot of laserdisc tracks like gbu that I want to sync up.

I assumed there would be a lot of work to do. Shoot me a PM if you do do it eventually though. And good luck if you do.