Warbler said:
Hey, it's jerk. said:
He's a deluded fool. Needs to start living in reality and stop imagining everyone's holding hands singing 'We are the World'
Disappointed. Thought you could do better than that? :)
that is all you're worth.
Warbler said:
that is all you're worth.
I found the terrible attempt at Gabba Techno the most insulting thing.
Londo Calrissian says :
Ladies, ladies, please…
Continue!
Hey, it's me. said:
The Burka is not compulsory in Islam. There are already cases arising where it has been used as a guise to commit crimes. Plus it is a very unsocial statement (in my view) and its wearers are basically saying 'I don't want to be part of your society'.
I think it's fine if people don't want to homogenize (not that I'm homophobic). I'm okay with people being anti-social. Whether they wear all black and scowl, peer out from behind tattered curtains, or be Amish.
The English and History being taught in Mosques was aimed at Muslim immigrant adults who arrive in the UK. And if they don't or refuse then I'm sorry what is your purpose of moving here? You will not be able to find a job without being able to speak English and having some general knowledge of the history and culture of your adoptive country is very beneficial. If you've come for a better quality of life then its hardly a massive sacrifice to do this is it? Failure to do this will ultimately result in deportation. 3 strikes and your out if you will.
Requiring english to become a citizen is fine. What sort of system you have that there immigrants are allowed to stay indefinitely I don't know. It seems like in the absence of becoming a citizen, immigrants must eventually leave, english-speaking or not.
Warbler said:
I did, you're still a bigot and women should still be allowed to wear Burkas if they want. As for concerns about 11 year olds. I couldn't chose not to go to Sunday School when I was 11. Part of freedom of religion is the right a parent to bring their child up in his/her religion.
Warbs, you've been accused of bigotry and it seems like you would step more lightly in throwing the accusations at others. I'm with you that women should wear burkas if they want. France banned even headscarves, which is quite loony to me.
Warbler said:
Mrebo said:
In our society, those enablers are typically liberals. Then those lefties, as you call them, blind themselves to the truth to continue their enabling in good conscience, more or less.
ah . . . more bs blaming the liberals for all the worlds problems. wonderful.
Not all problems, just this one. I'll get around to the others ;)
TV's Frink said:
Mrebo said:
And liberals love non-Christian religions.Well that's a broad brush...I hate all religions. :p
No match for a good blaster at your side, kid.
The blue elephant in the room.
Hey, it's me. said:
Bingowings said:
Why would he want to?
It's like Warb saying he doesn't like wearing shoes and you saying, "try walking on white hot razor blades without shoes mug!".
It was a hypothetical suggestion that would expose how intolerant Muslim nations are to any other religion. Think about before you stand on your liberal soapbox.
Since when did two wrongs make a right? Yeah, they are extremely intolerant, so what? That means we need to one up them? Please. I prefer to take the high ground.
Warbler said:
Hey, it's me. said:
Punishments like beatings and 'stuff like that' are illegal in the good ol' US of A? They're illegal in most countries but doesn't stop them happening behind closed doors.
I when it happens behind closed doors, I would suggest that victims leave that house and go to the police. They do not have to live like that.
But they won't Warb. That is part of abuse and oppression. If you talk to a battered wife or girlfriend in the US, they will generally defend their abusive significant other. They'll usually excuse him saying that they really did screw up that time and probably deserved it. Most of these women will lie to cover up for their abuser, "I ran into a door knob. Again. I'm really clumsy, you know."
You can't even get modern "liberated" American women to go to the police about stuff like this. So how do you think that is going to pan out when the woman has been taught since infancy that she is inferior, that her husband is within his right to beat her on occasion, and that god and her family would turn their backs on her if she were to do something as horrific as turn her husband into the authorities of this disgusting, evil, godless society. You can pretend "she should go to the police" is a safety net that really protects her all you want, if it makes you feel better, but it doesn't change the harsh reality of these poor women and the cycle of abuse and poor self image this way of thinking forces on them.
Remember our discussion about the gang rapes in France? You have a 15 year old girl who gets gang raped by 20 guys, she can't go to her parents because they will disown her. You think she is actually going to go to the police??? If she does that her parents are sure to find out, then she is out on the street and screwed. It is messed up and backwards as can be.
If we are letting these people into our countries, we have some obligation to protect them, educate them, and force order on them.
Wow, the maturity level this discussion is dropping to is staggering.
I honestly work with nine year olds who toss around more grown up insults than some of your guys. Perhaps if we wanted to demonstrate our ages, we could drop the ridiculous name calling altogether?
You ol' bunch of meany poo poo heads.
Warbler said:
I when it happens behind closed doors, I would suggest that victims leave that house and go to the police.
I'm sorry, but that is an incredibly naive over-simplification, on many many levels.
"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars
CP3S said:
You ol' bunch of meany poo poo heads.
Poo poo heads FTW.
Warbler said:
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
Yes they are choosing to wear it, but the reality is that some of them are being denied choice,
not in the US. They are free to wear them or not wear them.
Warbler said:
Hey, it's me. said:
Punishments like beatings and 'stuff like that' are illegal in the good ol' US of A? They're illegal in most countries but doesn't stop them happening behind closed doors.
I when it happens behind closed doors, I would suggest that victims leave that house and go to the police.
In reply to these two statements, i have to add another quote from you...
Warbler said:
and you are an idiot.
;)
I wished i lived in WarblerWorld, where everything seems to be so cut and dry, but unfortunately i live in the real world where things aren't as simple.
I want to live in WallyWorld.
Glad this sort of thing is coming to light.
Warbler said:Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
Yes they are choosing to wear it, but the reality is that some of them are being denied choice,
not in the US. They are free to wear them or not wear them.
Dude, seriously? How are you not understanding this? It is not rocket surgery. Yeah, legally they have the choice, but realistically, they don't have a choice. Sometimes there are psychological walls, familial restraints, or reasons of impracticality that keep us from doing things.
If she doesn't wear her burka, the US applauds her, but now she has committed a violation of expectations within her culture. Her husband could potentially leave her or disown her, or at the least retaliate for it.
But again, if it makes you happy to think that Muslim women in the US who wear burkas are doing so 100% of free will and out of their own personal desire to do so, then more power to you.
I once worked a temporary job involving a dozen Afghan women. They were all married and all wore hijabs. Only one of them spoke English, and during down time she'd try to teach me some farsi, or about Afghanistan's cuisine, and other cultural interested. We talked about the covering she would wear on her head, she admitted that it would be nice to walk around with her hair free like other women, but her husband wouldn't allow it and she would feel uncomfortably immodest. Here you have familial and cultural restraints preventing her from going into public without her hijab.
I think this Palestinian-American blogger has her thinking on the right track on the subject:
The hijab doesn't bother me at all (although I feel a little sorry for the athletes that have to compete in a hijab). The burka, however, is so extreme.
And the burka is not just a fashion statement. Is is one part of a whole litany of behavioral rules that include things such as not being able to go out in public without a male chaperone.
"Close the blast doors!"
Puggo’s website | Rescuing Star Wars
Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
Warbler said:
I when it happens behind closed doors, I would suggest that victims leave that house and go to the police.
I'm sorry, but that is an incredibly naive over-simplification, on many many levels.
well what would you suggest they do? stay in the house and continue to be beaten?
Unless the victims of abuse go to police, there is little the police can do for them. If they do the police here, unlike in some countries, will help them.
CP3S said:
Wow, the maturity level this discussion is dropping to is staggering.
I honestly work with nine year olds who toss around more grown up insults than some of your guys. Perhaps if we wanted to demonstrate our ages, we could drop the ridiculous name calling altogether?
You ol' bunch of meany poo poo heads.
*sigh* yeah. I am sorry I went the low route.
CP3S said:
Warbler said:Puggo - Jar Jar's Yoda said:
Yes they are choosing to wear it, but the reality is that some of them are being denied choice,
not in the US. They are free to wear them or not wear them.
Dude, seriously? How are you not understanding this? It is not rocket surgery. Yeah, legally they have the choice, but realistically, they don't have a choice.
but they do have a choice, they can go to the cops. I know they probably won't, but that doesn't mean they don't have a choice.
CP3S said:
If she doesn't wear her burka, the US applauds her, but now she has committed a violation of expectations within her culture. Her husband could potentially leave her or disown her, or at the least retaliate for it.
But again, if it makes you happy to think that Muslim women in the US who wear burkas are doing so 100% of free will and out of their own personal desire to do so, then more power to you.
yeah, I know they are not wearing burkas out of their own free will, but does that mean women should not be able wear them out of their own free will? Yeah, but banning burkas, you might free some women from their families oppression, but you'd be oppress other women by not allowing them to dress as they please.
Also as I said before if you banned burkas, would it really help these oppressed women? Are their oppressive husbands going to be ok with them not wearing burkas, just because it is against the law. I would think they would tell their wives to wear them anyway. I think instead of freeing these women from their oppressive husbands, you'd just end up fining them or jailing them for continuing to wear the burkas. You'd be putting the women in an impossible situation, either defy their husbands, or defy the law. Is that what you want to do to these women?
CP3S said:
If we are letting these people into our countries, we have some obligation to protect them, educate them, and force order on them.
but we also have an obligation to give them the same freedoms and constitutional and inalienable rights that we have.
banning burkas screams of violation of the above.
CP3S said:
I think this Palestinian-American blogger has her thinking on the right track on the subject:
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/04/24/is-the-hijab-worth-fighting-over/in-hijab-debate-a-weak-vision-of-feminism
and wouldn't a ban on burkas enforce the idea that women's bodies are not their own? If their bodies are their own, then it is they alone and not the government that should decide whether or not they will wear the burkas.
The government telling them they can't wear burkas, is just as oppressive (if not more), as their family telling them they must wear burkas.
adywan said:
Warbler said:
and you are an idiot.
;)
to adywan and everyone else, I promise to stop name calling. I hope everyone else will as well.
Hey I never look to call anyone names. But if you check back on this thread you threw the first stone Warbler.
I do find myself somewhat agreeing with Warbler. Not that it's as black and white as that, but I still don't think banning the burka is going to do any good. As has been said elsewhere in this thread, two wrongs don't make a right. And forcing someone to wear that is wrong. But so is banning someone from wearing it. Like Warbler said, I consider it just as oppressive as the opposite. Even if the freedom to not do so is not always easily taken, at least the option is there, and choice is almost always better than lack of choice.
There is no lingerie in space…
C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.
Hey, it's me. said:
Hey I never look to call anyone names. But if you check back on this thread you threw the first stone Warbler.
I am not saying I didn't, I am saying I am going to stop.
I just feel that if your moving to a country that is going to supply you with a much better way of life and standard of living, then take the local communities sensibilities into account on how you present yourself. The Burka doesn't present integration or willingness to communicate with local people. Am I missing the point but isn't the human face and the ability to see the WHOLE of it integral to communicating? The Burka is intimidating (to some), it represents seclusion into your own community and division from everyone else.
