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STAR WARS: EP V "REVISITED EDITION"ADYWAN - 12GB 1080p MP4 VERSION AVAILABLE NOW — Page 1102

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I'm confused.

1. Generally accepted argument on OT is that LFL can't get their own colors right on the subsequent releases of Star Wars, they cannot be trusted as original or real. 

2. The subsequent color re-timing is blue, unlike original, ergo, because it is blue, it proves that the bridge is the Executer.

Um.. I'm no rocket scientist, but this does not follow. How any print or DVD can be referenced as 'proof' makes no sense that the generally accepted opinion in OT circles is that those colors have been jacked with in every release.

Being that all film degrades over time unless stored under very specific conditions, which no publicly owned prints are likely to have been continuously stored under, trying to say we, the public, can know definitively the colors at time of release is simply a game of wanting to believe something, sort of like believing in God. We can believe strongly, but in the end there is no proof, only belief.

Absent any documented notes/story-boards/interviews etc.. which specify that the bridge/conning tower of the establishing shot is the Executor, you are concluding that this is the Executor's bridge based on the tenuous consistency of color (which we know are inconsistent at best). Even if we were to agree that the bridge looked sort of blue, no version we have seen is drastically blue outside the Pugo 16mm, which imo is likely the worst reference material as it is a 30 year old print not stored under ideal circumstances. Setting aside the Pugo, this blue is certainly not the drastic blue of the Executer (and new TIE's). You are using circumstantial evidence (color) to reach a conclusion which over-rules every instinct and established rule of film-making in terms of continuity and establishing shots. It flies in the face of all logical approaches to film making and particularly George's own approach to film making, which is quite traditional in terms of how he frames shots and establishes surroundings. 

In film, scenes build on scenes, particularly when you are introducing audiences to something new, this is how Lucas operates:

A New Hope

  1. Open with Text crawl over star field. Even without the text to tell us what's going on, the image establishes that this story starts in space.
  2. Pan down to desert planet with multiple moons. We now know we are not above Earth, we are somewhere else.
  3. Large space ship races overhead and away, shooting at some ship offscreen which is also shooting at it. We know somebody is being chased.
  4. Tip of perusing ship passes over us. It's big. It's really big. It's REALLY big. It's bigger than anything we've ever seen on screen before, and much more powerful than the first ship we saw.

 

With this sequence and no words, we the audience know a lot about the story. We're in space, not in our galaxy, one group is being chased by another, and the ones doing the chasing are incredibly more powerful than the one's being chased. 

The Star Destroyer is a visual introduction and explanation of just how powerful the Empire is. As an audience we've never seen anything this big before on screen (until we see the Death Star).

Fast-forward to ESB

We open with our now familiar Star Destroyers after the crawl, and we the audience feel pretty good about ourselves. We've returned to a familiar universe, familiar ships and familiar situation; Empire is still huge and powerful and the Rebels are hidiing/on the run.

But sequels are about more, about surprises and adding things, so the next time we see the Empire it's done to trick us.. 

Bridge of a Star Destroyer.. Ok, we recognize that, big deal. Then a full shot of the Star Destroyer, yeah we've seen that.. 

Then the shadow suddenly covers the biggest ship we've ever seen.. what the hell could do that? Oh Shit.. that Star Destroyer is HUGE (accompanied by the coolest, baddest music ever).

This is not only consistent with every rule about editing and film making we've ever seen, but it's consistent with how Lucas approaches movies. Everything always builds on what we've seen before. Lucas never goes for a bait and switch for this, it serves no purpose, neither narratively, stylistically or visually.

I dare you to find any example in film, let alone the Star Wars Saga where an Establishing shot introduces a small part of something which makes us think we know exactly what we're looking at, reinforced by a following shot of the thing WE THINK IT IS, and then cuts to the thing the first shot was supposed to be.

You won't find it. It doesn't exist, because that's now how you edit a scene. There is no reason to 'tease' the bridge of the Executor and then cut to a regular Star Destroyer. It serves no narrative purpose. 

 

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 (Edited)

adywan said:

So i shouldn't return it to it's original colouring because everyone thinks it should be a different colour? Am i on the right site? Have i slipped into a mirror universe? lol

Heh, I hope to show shortly how I too ended up believing this past few years that the 'tower' close-up belonged to the Stardestroyer that eventually gets 'shadowed', after originally suspecting it was *perhaps* meant to be the 'Executor' tower after all...  And it was actually partly your fault Ady! ;)

Personally, I'm okay with this 'restoration' even though I've been used to seeing it in a very different way for long enough.

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Hmm this is a tough one. On the one hand Ady is changing the colouring back to how all the evidence points out it used to look, but then there's some of us that think the GOUT's washed out colours actually changed the sequence for the better (shocker, I know) as a cinematic 'reveal'.  Personally, I'm on the fence. I think both the "holy shit, what's creating that big ass shadow?" and the "glimpsing just the fin of the shark" approaches have merit.

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I always viewed it as "look at the giant ships, now an EVEN BIGGER BRIDGE comes overhead like the whole ship did in the original".

This bickering is pointless. The "faded" film shows a distinct color difference between the ships. The SE team made sure it was the same color difference. It's the Executor, sorry that that doesn't jive with people's preconceptions. We've all learned a lot studying these films, just add this to the list and move on.

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If someone already knows this, or is actually capable of opening the vault and having a look at original drafts, notes and/or storyboards is Lucasfilm's Pablo Hidalgo ( twitter.com/infinata ). It wouldn't hurt to ask him via Twitter I suppose. If a bunch of people ask the same question, he might just take the time to research and give an answer if he doesn't know for sure already.

 

FWIW, I always thought that tower belonged to a regular SD, not the Executor.

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This is the "STAR WARS: EP V "REVISITED EDITION"**ADYWAN** - **BATTLE OF HOTH CLIP NOW AVAILABLE**" Bizarro World!
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 (Edited)

I have always thought that the tower always belonged to the executor... I never realised people actually thought that this was a normal star destroyer.

You could change it to whatever color you want it will always be the ececutor to me.

Lando says "What about those colors!"

What colors? Oh those colors that somehow confused people into thinking something much larger in scale was something smaller...

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The problem that leads to the misconception is that the bridge doesn't look BIGGER - if the shield generators for example would be empasized then you could be lead to think: Hey, that is weird for a SD - but the bridge (apart from it's coloring) doesn't stand off against the rest of the fleet - until we see that huge shadow - then at last we realise that we see the BIG shark in the pond!

 

So correcting the color is one thing, and maybe it helps many viewers, but the rest of us would have needed a different type of bridge to establish the "shark fin" approach - am I correct ?

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 (Edited)

Look at the scene where the falcon is clamped on to the back of a normal star destroyer bridge if you still think it is a normal star destroyer...

I am sure you will notice the executor bridge is much wider and is the one in the first shot.... It is not a replica of a SD bridge

That is from my memory without looking

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All you people doubting that it's not the Executor, you've all got to be kidding me?!  Why the hell would that be a flyover shot obscuring all those other other SD's with another SD?!  I've known that was the Executor from the first time I ever saw that scene.  Like others have said, this bickering is pointless!!

“Did you know, the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?! Look it up.”

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Marty.McFly said:

If someone already knows this, or is actually capable of opening the vault and having a look at original drafts, notes and/or storyboards is Lucasfilm's Pablo Hidalgo ( twitter.com/infinata ). It wouldn't hurt to ask him via Twitter I suppose. If a bunch of people ask the same question, he might just take the time to research and give an answer if he doesn't know for sure already.

 

FWIW, I always thought that tower belonged to a regular SD, not the Executor.

 Isn't there a making-of / behind-the-scenes feature that sheds some light on this?

Anyway, I still believe it's a regular SD conn tower. And no, I'm not pushing for a change in Revisited, it's just how I see it. :)

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FVDnz said:

All you people doubting that it's not the Executor, you've all got to be kidding me?!  Why the hell would that be a flyover shot obscuring all those other other SD's with another SD?!  I've known that was the Executor from the first time I ever saw that scene.  Like others have said, this bickering is pointless!!

I don't think they are bickering, so much as pointing out how it's looked to them due to the colouring issues.  As L8wrtr and others have described, the blue underside of the 'Executor' seems to also work very well as the first reveal of it's immense size, if you imagine the 'big tower' to be merely that of one of the gathering fleet SDs to begin with.

FVDnz said:

Every time I look at the Executor from that angle it just doesn't look right.  It's like you're looking under the SSD or something.

Meant to say FVDnz, that you *are* looking under the SSD in that shot you mentioned, as our viewpoint is from a far lower position as we look up at it and the other SDs nearby.

RONSTER said:

Look at the scene where the falcon is clamped on to the back of a normal star destroyer bridge if you still think it is a normal star destroyer...

I am sure you will notice the executor bridge is much wider and is the one in the first shot... It is not a replica of a SD bridge

That is from my memory without looking

Ronster, due to incorrect 'scaling' issues, that SD shot you mention either shows a tiny 'tower' or an extremely large 'Falcon'...depending on your point of view.  So it doesn't really doesn't help in this case.  I actually asked if adywan was leaving the 'Falcon' size as it was, many moons ago, but I don't think he gave an answer at the time.  Not that I recall, anyway.  There are unfortunate scaling issues throughout the OT anyway, and that particular 'Falcon' shot might just have to remain as it is.

The 'Executor' and standard SD 'tower' designs and scales were dissected here long ago, and the 'bridge' detailing on the front of the 'towers' was suggested as being the main factor to take into consideration where scales are concerned - which is why the 'hiding Falcon' is the wrong size, for instance.  

Anyway, here's a link to a resource with a heap of info./photos for anyone that wants to gorge themselves on all that if they missed it all before.  (*note* - I'm not saying that every fact here is 100% accurate, though) - www.theforce.net/swtc/towers.html#introduction  

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It has nothing to do with scale... It looks completely different.

It has different angles.... it is more obtuse....

And the neck is also thicker and wider on the executor than a normal SD

So far as scale goes in the shot i mentioned of falcon clamped on the back of the bridge.... It looks fairly consistant to me going by the rest of the shots that include the falcon and a star destroyer.... So the falcon is to big then? in all of the film?

Even if the scale is wrong in that shot it has more to do with keeping the audience in tune with what is actually happening rather than lose them in confusion or wether the falcon is exactly the right size.... the shot would have to be a pan out from falcon in terms of this

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This is example #133,343 of why I'm glad this isn't my project. :p

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TV's Frink said:


This is example #133,343 of why I'm glad this isn't my project. :p
You go through this too, just on a much smaller scale.

PERSON: I think this would be funny!
FRINK: I don't.
PERSON: OK!

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 (Edited)

Putting my micromanaging 'annoying as hell' pedant hat on for a moment.

While I believe this is meant to be the Executor Bridge tower it is clearly the generic ISD bridge tower coloured blue (I don't think the actually built a close up model Executor pod until ROTJ and didn't use it all the time even then).

The models show a difference in the way the bridge pod connects to it's extended tower on the Super Stardestroyer to the conventional connection seen in the shot.

I'm not sure how that can be made to work without building the bottom of the tower or making a matte (which would set back the project even longer).

Is it worth it for a barely noticeable difference????

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Hi,

Isn't it odd that the light change direction when we assume that this is the executor?

My only suggestion is to flip the shot so everything is in place. Executor will have the sun from its left and it will keep its present direction, with the rest of the shots.

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The problem with it being the "sharks fin" is that it doesn't look any different than what we're used to seeing, so we assume it's the thing we already know. It isn't dwarfing anything in that shot letting us know it's something bigger and badder than the SDs we're familiar with. It isn't until the shadow is cast over the SDs that the audience thinks "Whoa! What's this gonna be?"

Also, as Niflamol pointed out already, it seems to be going the wrong direction in the "shark fin" shot as opposed to it's full reveal. The tower is going from the right to the left of the screen, but the SSD is moving from the left to the right. You could argue that we're viewing the tower from the other side in that shot, but that isn't how the language of cinema works.

Ray’s Lounge
Biggs in ANH edit idea
ROTJ opening edit idea

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Yeah, coloring or not from the original, I don't think it was ever meant to be the Executor. As an editor, there is too much evidence that this is supposed to be a regular SD. If it were ever shot as a blue tower, then it is extremely likely the original intent was for it to be the Executor BUT as editing went along they ditched the original intent and used the shot to show a bridge conning tower of a regular SD.

It's been done several times in this film. Just look at the setup of the Rebels on Hoth as they prepare their rifles. The blaster cannons behind them were already on fire before the battle even began. Or when Han peeks up to look at the probe droid. The snow in front of him already had debris from the probe droid.

These examples show that is was common on this show to use shots out of its original intended context and placed elsewhere regardless of small continuity errors. As an editor myself, it makes zero sense narratively to place the Executor tower at that point. If it were to be a 'fin in the water' type thing then it was done very poorly in an otherwise brilliant lead up to the reveal of the Executor. I think in this instance it'd be wiser to forego the blue and keep the coloring more in line with that of a regular SD.

Just my two cents. Fortunately for me, if I don't like it the way it ends up I can just change it to suit my own wants. I did that with ANH:R and I suggest anyone else do the same for themselves. It's not that hard to change a few little things if you really want to.  

 

If once you start down the dark path... wear comfortable shoes.

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Darth Stewie said:


Just my two cents. Fortunately for me, if I don't like it the way it ends up I can just change it to suit my own wants. I did that with ANH:R and I suggest anyone else do the same for themselves. It's not that hard to change a few little things if you really want to.  
Yes, yes, to Stewie you listen!

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Oh man... this is bringing me back to one of the many great debates.... green lasers etc....

I am in the camp that I always thought that it was a regular SD tower. It doesn't make sense visually to me in the reveal process that it is the Executor tower.

 

Has anyone thought that we ALL could be right? It could be a case that the tower filmed for that shot IS the Executor's but it was edited in a way that it is meant visually on screen to be a SD tower. 

 

Many times shots were filmed and not used in the way they were originally intended for editing purposes.

 

Just a thought....

 

Matticon

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Matticon said:


Has anyone thought that we ALL could be right? It could be a case that the tower filmed for that shot IS the Executor's but it was edited in a way that it is meant visually on screen to be a SD tower.
It's the same model used when the Falcon attaches to the SD tower. This doesn't help my argument that its supposed to be the Executor, though their towers are supposed to be the same size.

If this is the thing most people have a problem with in this edit, I call this a win.

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Alright let's build up an Executor model so we can film that flying over instead, shall we?!  :p

“Did you know, the word ‘gullible’ is not in the dictionary?! Look it up.”