I'm a feminist! — Page 14

Well, your talking about conforming to stereotypes your brainwashed into following as children. What I'm saying is as an adult you may dress like you've been programmed to (i mean come on, big deal lol) but your emotional and mental strength and intelligence and individual character is what defines you as an adult. And as adults, that is what we relate to on a personal level with each other. And those are traits that cannot be indoctrinated.

Maasai men wear dresses and makeup to attract women. I suppose that's hormonal?

It's sad to read views of gender so locked to a very narrow cultural lane of space and time already largely past.

I pity those lonely souls left behind and worry where they may drag the rest of us in the future.

Did you just read my last post? 

Gaffer Tape said:

  But, what?  Are you saying that such a thing is impossible?  That men didn't go see Titanic? 

No,  I saw Titanic.   

Bingowings said:

Maasai men wear dresses and makeup to attract women. I suppose that's hormonal?

It's sad to read views of gender so locked to a very narrow cultural lane of space and time already largely past.

I pity those lonely souls left behind and worry where they may drag the rest of us in the future.

 

Your still harping on about make up and skirts when I've quite clearly stated that adults relate to each other through character and intelligence and emotion. Adults (admittedly maybe men) may take the piss if your dressed like that but if they are attracted to your 'character" on a personable level that becomes irrelevant. You could be dressed as a 'stereotypical' man or woman, or as a darlek or a Cylon or whatever it doesn't matter as long as your strength of personality shines through above all else. And personality for adults is not shown through what you choose to dress in. That is a fact.

It's all very right on an with it of you to say so but while people are 'harping on' about how women are predetermined to do this or that and men are predetermined to wear this and drink that your respect for the inner person doesn't count for much if she is sent back to the kitchen where she belongs and he is out beating up poofs.

There have been places in the world where opportunities for men and women that seemed to be on the road to parity took a sudden turn for the complete opposite.

Germany between the wars and Persia before the revolution for example.

The glowing inner light of the unconventionally attired is a bit difficult to see from a distant concentration camp or hanging from a gallows.

It's ironic however that Iran now is very accommodating towards the transgendered to the point that homosexual men are having their bits chopped off to avoid being hung by the neck.

TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

The examples you use aren't exactly adult movies are they. Ripley from the Alien films is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Adult films for adults, not teenage guff.

Not totally sure what your point is. That we force gender roles on children through the media, but that all magically vanished when we're old enough to watch "Alien"?

This is actually slightly besides the point, but:

I love Alien, and it is cool that the main protagonist was a strong female, but then we still get to see her in the traditional role of playing eye candy for the benefit of male viewers at the end of the film while waltzing around in her panties. Same thing with Princess Leia, we're giving a strong female protagonist, and in the third film we objectify the shit out of her for the first however many minutes of the film.

We still force these characters into the expected gender roles, Leia is a strong character you wouldn't want to mess with, then BAM, she's imprisoned, vulnerable, and naked and needs a boy to come save her. But then again, I guess she started off the first film as the damsel in distress anyway.

But is this even that big of a deal anymore? I feel like our society is meeting equilibrium when it comes to objectification, you have shows like Spartacus that shows lingering close up shots of muscular men wearing next to nothing, and while you see plenty of female nudity in that show, they also hang plenty of dong on screen. True Blood is much the same way, equal opportunity objectification. And you get films like Magic Mike drawing in large female crowds.

greenpenguino said:

Hey, it's me. said:

I think where our lines are getting crossed is yours is an American perspective and mine a British one. 

That's Bullshit. I'm British too and I share a similar mindset to Gaffer. (Although he can express it better than I can)

Damn, "You Just Don't Understand My Cultural Perspective" card fail. ;)

Hey It's Me, I don't think any lines are being crossed, but I do think you keep missing the points Gaffer is trying to make by a hair or two.

Example:

Hey, it's me. said:

What I'm trying to convey is that not every character conforms to the sexist stereotype your alluding to. If you grow up and mature into an adult and are convinced through so called brainwashing as a child that women are weak and only care about flowers and shit then your a weak minded fool. Women are mentally and emotionally stronger than men are and that is a widely held belief in the UK. So bearing THAT in mind, what are you trying to say? 

One time when I was kind of young I was helping my grandfather put in a sprinkling system. I was in the market for a new BB gun at the time, and earlier in the day he had been explaining to me that a longer barrel means your BBs will go farther.

Hours later, we are digging holes in the back yard and installing sprinklers. I asked him another question about BB guns regarding barrel length and distance, and he responds that that really has no bearing on the distance and that how far it sprays is determined by the water pressure more than anything else. At this point, I was talking BB guns and he was talking sprinklers.

This conversation keeps reminding me of that.

Much like my little childhood story I just shared, the above quote from you has practically zero connection to anything Gaffer has posted, unless I missed a post or two of his.

Bingowings said:

It's all very right on an with it of you to say so but while people are 'harping on' about how women are predetermined to do this or that and men are predetermined to wear this and drink that your respect for the inner person doesn't count for much if she is sent back to the kitchen where she belongs and he is out beating up poofs.

There have been places in the world where opportunities for men and women that seemed to be on the road to parity took a sudden turn for the complete opposite.

Germany between the wars and Persia before the revolution for example.

The glowing inner light of the unconventionally attired is a bit difficult to see from a distant concentration camp or hanging from a gallows.

It's ironic however that Iran now is very accommodating towards the transgendered to the point that homosexual men are having their bits chopped off to avoid being hung by the neck.

I can only talk of my reality and the way I perceive it. And that reality is what truly counts above all else for grown up, emotionally mature adults is personality, intelligence, sense of humour etc. Be it a man or woman. What you allude to may be the case where you live (some rough end of Govan by the sounds of it? Lol) but not me. I live in an ordinary suburb of south London (bordering on Surrey). And some of the strongest characters I know are women. They're fucking hard people. And for your information Bingo. A local bloke came out as being gay a few years ago but no one really batted an eyelid. D'ya know why? Because everyone who knows him knows he's an honest stand up bloke. He's got kids, and he worships the bloody ground they walk on. And he's always been known as a bit of a character. He's funny. His eventual sexual preference means nothing.

I'm not talking about where I live (though I have lived in some places where a man wearing a dress is really taking their life in their hands).

My neighbours are great.

I'm talking where we all are, here.

There are some wacky retrograde notions on this very thread. It's notions like that left unchecked lead to me Godwinning the topic.

Hey, it's me. said:

Bingowings said:

It's all very right on an with it of you to say so but while people are 'harping on' about how women are predetermined to do this or that and men are predetermined to wear this and drink that your respect for the inner person doesn't count for much if she is sent back to the kitchen where she belongs and he is out beating up poofs.

I don't want to send women back to the kitchen, nor would I say she belongs there and he belongs out beating up poofs(whatever the heck a poof is).   

Hey, it's me. said:

Bingowings said:

Maasai men wear dresses and makeup to attract women. I suppose that's hormonal?

It's sad to read views of gender so locked to a very narrow cultural lane of space and time already largely past.

I pity those lonely souls left behind and worry where they may drag the rest of us in the future.

 

Your still harping on about make up and skirts when I've quite clearly stated that adults relate to each other through character and intelligence and emotion.

I guess I know a lot of older people that aren't adults yet.

Warbler said:

Gaffer Tape said:

  But, what?  Are you saying that such a thing is impossible?  That men didn't go see Titanic? 

No,  I saw Titanic.   

Dude, everyone saw Titanic.

...

Actually, that's a bad example in that it was marketed to everyone.  Romance and sweaty Leo for the ladies (and Bingo, maybe, not sure how he feels about Leo), naked Kate and death/destruction for the guys.

CP3S said:

TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

The examples you use aren't exactly adult movies are they. Ripley from the Alien films is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Adult films for adults, not teenage guff.

Not totally sure what your point is. That we force gender roles on children through the media, but that all magically vanished when we're old enough to watch "Alien"?

This is actually slightly besides the point, but:

I love Alien, and it is cool that the main protagonist was a strong female, but then we still get to see her in the traditional role of playing eye candy for the benefit of male viewers at the end of the film while waltzing around in her panties. Same thing with Princess Leia, we're giving a strong female protagonist, and in the third film we objectify the shit out of her for the first however many minutes of the film.

We still force these characters into the expected gender roles, Leia is a strong character you wouldn't want to mess with, then BAM, she's imprisoned, vulnerable, and naked and needs a boy to come save her. But then again, I guess she started off the first film as the damsel in distress anyway.

But is this even that big of a deal anymore? I feel like our society is meeting equilibrium when it comes to objectification, you have shows like Spartacus that shows lingering close up shots of muscular men wearing next to nothing, and while you see plenty of female nudity in that show, they also hang plenty of dong on screen. True Blood is much the same way, equal opportunity objectification. And you get films like Magic Mike drawing in large female crowds.

Spartacus is an awesome power fantasy of who I want to be. The vampire on True Blood are super-hot demigods of awesome. If that's objectification, give me more.The ladies might like them, but that's who I wish I was.

But look at your own examples. Dis-empowered near naked vulnerable women looking sexy aren't who I want my daughter to identify with. They're wish fulfillment for the MEN watching as well.

Show me a half naked vulnerable man saved by a big strong sexy lady... and I'm pretty sure we must be watching a parody of something.

TV's Frink said:

Warbler said:

Gaffer Tape said:

  But, what?  Are you saying that such a thing is impossible?  That men didn't go see Titanic?

No,  I saw Titanic. 

Dude, everyone saw Titanic.

 I was below decks for much of the voyage but I got a very good view of the iceberg... you know it wasn't really an iceberg, it was a.... opps!

Don't fancy Leo but he is a better actor than Hayden.

Warbler said:

Hey, it's me. said:

Bingowings said:

It's all very right on an with it of you to say so but while people are 'harping on' about how women are predetermined to do this or that and men are predetermined to wear this and drink that your respect for the inner person doesn't count for much if she is sent back to the kitchen where she belongs and he is out beating up poofs.

I don't want to send women back to the kitchen, nor would I say she belongs there and he belongs out beating up poofs(whatever the heck a poof is).

Well of course you don't but your wacky notions of biological predetermined gender behavior held by enough people eventually leads back to policies of that nature being adopted to appeal to those sentiments.

Most Europeans before WW2 had a general feeling that Jews, Gypsies, Homosexuals and Lefties were a bit too worryingly different for their taste but I doubt if most of them would have worked the machinery of the holocaust until the political atmosphere not only allowed them but encourage them to do so (largely out of fear of the same happening to them).

People like Wells and Shaw were pro-eugenics until they saw how the Germans did it.

It's easier to label some people as non-human if you already have labeled them non-conformist or different.

It's safer develop an indifference to difference. The words, "If everyone is special no one is" needn't be a negative statement. If no one is special, no one is targeted.

Or untermenschen, as the Germans called them. Look, I've obviously misunderstood the point that's been tried to be put across here but this is the way I see it (and correct me if I'm still way off the mark). Why are we all programmed to adhere an conform to certain sexual stereotypes from a young age when we should be allowed to grow freely and naturally without being told, "right your a boy, and your a girl. And your expected to be like this and your expected to be like that." My argument is that I don't see there being anything wrong with there being a little order to the way things are. Everyone eventually grows and matures to be an individual in their own right. As I've said somewhere before I'm not prejudiced in any way. People are people. We all eat, sleep, shit, fuck whatever. In complete darkness we are all the same, it is only our knowledge and wisdom that separates us. 

I don't think having order and society saying, "right you're a boy, and you're a girl" is a bad thing. It is something every culture does, I'm sure with effort it could be avoided, and if it can be, I don't think I'd want it to be. I enjoy that somethings are overtly feminine, I enjoy admiring femininity. Likewise, I enjoy my masculinity and the reality that I can connect with male friends and acquaintances in different way than I can connect with a female mate/partner/companion. I feel like we would lose out on a lot if we were to go out of our way to ensure everything for everyone, and blur the lines of distinction between genders.

The issue comes when people are chastised when they violate those social gender expectations. Some little boys want to play with dolls, so what? Instead we say that this is weird, trip over ourselves in a rush to pry the doll from his hands, and shove a GI Joe in one hand and a Nerf gun in the other. Some men like to wear skirts, and we decide they are either a "flamer" or they are crazy, and we don't take them seriously as a person.

I think I probably vary from Gaffer on this thought, but I do enjoy the fact that there is a distinction between men's clothing and women's clothing. I like that there are clothes designed to look great on a women, and clothes designed to look great on a man. Our bodies do have different shapes, after all. But I think it is about time we got over scratching our heads and declaring that something is afoul whenever someone really like a garment and decide they'd like to wear it regardless of what sex it is designed for.

Especially since this is only a one way turn-style. Women in khakis and a polo, a common male look, perfectly fine. Women in a business suit, another traditionally male look, perfectly fine. Hell, a women dressed in clothing traditional intended for men can be downright sexy, I'm thinking neck ties, suspenders, sweater vests, overalls, baseball caps. Our culture is more than fine with this. But a man puts on a skirt, and the reaction is, "What the fuck? This poor guy clearly has some kind of mental condition."

I think its that we just seem to live in a dominantly patriarchal society. Otherwise it would be like this  http://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=relmfu&v=KTX3k7YO9H8

Not quite the same as wearing skirts, but I own a lot of shoes. A few have varying degrees of utility, like my steel toe work boots, my hiking boots, my running shoes, and my all black dress shoes. But the majority are just-for-fun shoes. I am not even going to say how many pairs I own, I'd honestly have to physically count them, there are too many to recall off the top of my head. I've had male friends tease me about this, usually with the ever creative and all so original phrase, "Dude, you sure you're not gay?" And I've had girls take a peak in my closet and exclaim with concern (or jealousy?) that I have even more shoes than they do.

I really love shoes. Before I go out sometimes I try on different ones to see which look best with the outfit I am wearing. I love shoe shopping when I have female friends around to shoe shop with!* Obviously going alone is no fun, and attempting to get a male friend to shoe shop would be an invitation for teasing.

We expect women to be obsessed with shoes and own ridiculous amounts of them, while the norm for males is to own two or three pairs and wear them until they are worn out. There are so many gorgeous options out there! So many colors, so many styles. How can anyone own so few?

*Everywhere else I have ever lived I've made good close female friends. In my current location, even though I have been here almost two years, I've not yet managed to make any genuine female friends. Every time I think I've made a female friend, it doesn't take long before it turns out she is interested in more than friendship, then it becomes a damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario. They either end up feeling rejected and never talking to me again, or things start going in that other direction, burn hot, then fizzle fast and we move on. I am still trying to figure out exactly why I have this problem here when it has never been an issue for me before.