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I'm a feminist! — Page 13

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Apparently my use of past-tense conjugation was lost on you...

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Gaffer Tape said:

Apparently my use of past-tense conjugation was lost on you...

So you were agreeing with what I said then?

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Gaffer Tape said:

[...]

BRONIES!!!

[...]

I remember watching PPG, I never thought of it as a "girly" show.

MLP:FIM seems to have taken the internet by storm. I never understood the fascination with small horses myself.

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Which part?  I agree that sex having an impact on one's opportunity for education is largely a thing of the past.  In fact, I think I read recently that women have now managed to edge out the majority of degrees or something to that effect.  But that really wasn't the point to begin with.

The point is that these gender-based rules you so cherish, at one point in time, very much did restrict opportunity based on the availability of education.  It was not until people began moving past that that the playing field began to level out.  Had we continued our way of thinking, never bothered to question it, just shrugged and said, "Well, men and women are just different," then it would have stayed that way.  And yet, despite proving how much we limited ourselves based on such preconceptions and how many steps we've taken to put an end to such things on ONE end and how much we pat ourselves on the back for it, it's amazing how people still draw a line in the sand and say, "Nope.  Gotta stop here.  It just ain't right."

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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I think where our lines are getting crossed is yours is an American perspective and mine a British one. 

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Gaffer Tape said:

Which part?  I agree that sex having an impact on one's opportunity for education is largely a thing of the past.  In fact, I think I read recently that women have now managed to edge out the majority of degrees or something to that effect.  But that really wasn't the point to begin with.

The point is that these gender-based rules you so cherish, at one point in time, very much did restrict opportunity based on the availability of education.  It was not until people began moving past that that the playing field began to level out.  Had we continued our way of thinking, never bothered to question it, just shrugged and said, "Well, men and women are just different," then it would have stayed that way.  And yet, despite proving how much we limited ourselves based on such preconceptions and how many steps we've taken to put an end to such things on ONE end and how much we pat ourselves on the back for it, it's amazing how people still draw a line in the sand and say, "Nope.  Gotta stop here.  It just ain't right."

 

Did you ever stop to consider the possibility that maybe there is something instinctual/hormonal/whatever  in men and women that make men more predisposed to liking things like Star Wars and make women more predisposed to liking Disney Princesses, and the same thing with clothing?  Please note that I am not saying that these instincts/hormones/whatever make it impossible for men to like Disney Princesses or for women to like Star Wars.   

 

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Really?  You can vouch for the British that theirs has always been a society free of gender prejudice and limiting gender roles?  I'm not an expert on British history, but, and without malice, I'd say your perspective has provided quite a lot of evidence to the contrary.

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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 (Edited)

Warbler said:

Gaffer Tape said:

Which part?  I agree that sex having an impact on one's opportunity for education is largely a thing of the past.  In fact, I think I read recently that women have now managed to edge out the majority of degrees or something to that effect.  But that really wasn't the point to begin with.

The point is that these gender-based rules you so cherish, at one point in time, very much did restrict opportunity based on the availability of education.  It was not until people began moving past that that the playing field began to level out.  Had we continued our way of thinking, never bothered to question it, just shrugged and said, "Well, men and women are just different," then it would have stayed that way.  And yet, despite proving how much we limited ourselves based on such preconceptions and how many steps we've taken to put an end to such things on ONE end and how much we pat ourselves on the back for it, it's amazing how people still draw a line in the sand and say, "Nope.  Gotta stop here.  It just ain't right."

 

Did you ever stop to consider the possibility that maybe there is something instinctual/hormonal/whatever  in men and women that make men more predisposed to liking things like Star Wars and make women more predisposed to liking Disney Princesses, and the same thing with clothing?  Please note that I am not saying that these instincts/hormones/whatever make it impossible for men to like Disney Princesses or for women to like Star Wars.   

 

No.  I stop to consider that there is maybe something instinctual/hormonal/whatever in INDIVIDUALS that predispose them to liking certain things, and that those traits, to a certain extent, fall in line with certain biological sexes.  I feel a lot of it is socially implemented and constructed, and you've actually admitted to that.  But regardless of the cause, that's rather irrelevant, and I don't see how it applies to what you're quoting, unless you're saying there is some biological predisposition that justifies women in the past not getting an education, the right the vote, the opportunity to hold careers, etc.  The FACT is that there are plenty of outliers, and what good is it doing them, or society as a whole, to limit their abilities, interests, and potentials through a de facto social bullying?  Maybe you don't agree with those expressions.  Fine.  There are a lot of things I don't agree with.  But what harm does it do anyone to be accepting of it versus the harm it does to suppress individuals the comfort to not fall in line?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Gaffer Tape said:

Really?  You can vouch for the British that theirs has always been a society free of gender prejudice and limiting gender roles?  I'm not an expert on British history, but, and without malice, I'd say your perspective has provided quite a lot of evidence to the contrary.

Men like what they like and women like what they like but i dont view that as an oppressive notion. Now obviously certain things will cross those boundaries where things can be liked by everybody. The one factor that overrides everything is how smart you are and THAT is what really matters above all else. Some men are smarter than women, some women are smarter than men. 

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 (Edited)

Hey, it's me. said:

 

Men like what they like and women like what they like but i dont view that as an oppressive notion. Now obviously certain things will cross those boundaries where things can be liked by everybody. 

 

Warbler said:

Did you ever stop to consider the possibility that maybe there is something instinctual/hormonal/whatever  in men and women that make men more predisposed to liking things like Star Wars and make women more predisposed to liking Disney P

 

 

It's convienient that naturally girls and boys like exactly what we raise them to like, expect them to like, market to them to like, and punish them if they don't like. 

Genetics sure conveniently fits with 21st century Western cultural norms. 

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TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

 

Men like what they like and women like what they like but i dont view that as an oppressive notion. Now obviously certain things will cross those boundaries where things can be liked by everybody. 

 

Warbler said:

Did you ever stop to consider the possibility that maybe there is something instinctual/hormonal/whatever  in men and women that make men more predisposed to liking things like Star Wars and make women more predisposed to liking Disney P

 

 

It's convienient that naturally girls and boys like exactly what we raise them to like, expect them to like, market to them to like, and punish them if they don't like. 

Genetics sure conveniently fits with 21st century Western cultural norms. 

Rather that than the Islamic idea of what a woman's place is in society. Western cultural norms may not be perfect, but you name me ONE society on this earth where women are treated as equals more than the west? 

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Hey, it's me. said:

Now obviously certain things will cross those boundaries where things can be liked by everybody.

Indeed?  How does that happen precisely?  Who decides what has managed to fit the bill for crossing those boundaries?  You make it sound as if it's just something that magically happens, that we have absolutely no control over it.  Or, conversely, that such things have to be purposely decreed to be so, as in, "We allow that this is just for boys, this is just for girls, but THIS can be for everybody."  Or that there are just some things that are impossible to cross those boundaries?  If so, why are they impossible?  Can they be possible?  Or do you just accept that your views happen to line up with the majority (or is it the other way around), and that's really all that matters?  Society has made its judgment and no other outcomes are possible?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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 (Edited)

Rather that than the Islamic idea of what a woman's place is in society. Western cultural norms may not be perfect, but you name me ONE society on this earth where women are treated as equals more than the west?

This may be true, but it's really a strawman argument anyway.  "We're better than the competition, therefore, we're exempt from judgment"?  Besides, I think you're missing his point.  Your example of Islam proves that people simply see things the way they want to see them.  These rules aren't inherent.  They're prescribed.  That's obvious considering they differ in different parts of the world.  They differ in the same parts of the world in different times.  Yet it's still met with a shrug and a, "Well, this is the way it is, and I can't conceive of anything different, and I don't want to try, and at any rate, it's still better than what they do over there."  Which, again, is the same kind of attitude that's held together every type of institution that we now consider to be barbaric:  slavery, racism, sexism, classism.  These people are just too different.  They can't hope to do the same things we do.  And besides, we like things the way they are.  They're comfortable.  So even though we've mostly done away with the concept of a ruling type of person, it still manifests itself both ways.  "Oh, well, a man wouldn't want to do this."  "A woman wouldn't want to do this."  "A man can't possibly understand this."  "A woman's not capable of this."  When you're constantly bombarded by those kinds of judgments, it does affect how you see what you're capable of.  "Oh, well, I shouldn't be a costumer.  That's a girl's job, and my dad's pushing me to play football, and my friends would make fun of me."  "Oh, well, I want to be a mechanic, but it's not ladylike, and I have to be pretty."

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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No your reading way too much into it Gaffer. There's no hidden agenda behind something being universally liked. Look at the film Gladiator. That film was liked by both men and women for entirely different reasons. That's just an example. Music is another. Explain to me how comes everyone can like music no matter who or what you are? Is music purposefully decreed so that only men like this and women like that? No it isn't is it. These things are examples. Not toys and clothes.

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Well... I'm a bit embarrassed.  You actually totally misinterpreted what I was saying.  Those were mostly rhetorical questions intended to probe into what you think, not what I think.  So it's kinda weird to read you telling me I'm wrong to think there's some rigid conspiracy when that's exactly what I was arguing against.

That said, I find it very odd (and telling) for you to say all that and then immediately decree that toys and clothes aren't examples...  Kinda what I was getting at in the first place...

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Hey, it's me. said:

No your reading way too much into it Gaffer. There's no hidden agenda behind something being universally liked. Look at the film Gladiator. That film was liked by both men and women for entirely different reasons. That's just an example. Music is another. Explain to me how comes everyone can like music no matter who or what you are? Is music purposefully decreed so that only men like this and women like that? No it isn't is it. These things are examples. Not toys and clothes.

Music and movies aren't made that way?? I'll tell that to all the male students at the local high school that they can wear their "Bieber Fever" shirts while they go to see "Sex and the City 2." 

There's no hidden agenda. You're right. The agenda is plain to see and obvious. The film novel "Princess of Mars" was made into a movie called "John Carter" because the word "princess" would mean only girls could see it. 

"Salt" was a movie written for a male lead. When they cast Angelina Jolie and genderswapped it, they had to rewrite the ending because if a wife saved her husband, he would be too emasculated, and it would ruin the movie. 

The system of institutionalized sexism is all around, it affects both sexes, and it's not at all hard to see. 

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Gaffer you are way too philosophical for me my friend. :-)

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TheBoost said:

Hey, it's me. said:

No your reading way too much into it Gaffer. There's no hidden agenda behind something being universally liked. Look at the film Gladiator. That film was liked by both men and women for entirely different reasons. That's just an example. Music is another. Explain to me how comes everyone can like music no matter who or what you are? Is music purposefully decreed so that only men like this and women like that? No it isn't is it. These things are examples. Not toys and clothes.

Music and movies aren't made that way?? I'll tell that to all the male students at the local high school that they can wear their "Bieber Fever" shirts while they go to see "Sex and the City 2." 

There's no hidden agenda. You're right. The agenda is plain to see and obvious. The film novel "Princess of Mars" was made into a movie called "John Carter" because the word "princess" would mean only girls could see it. 

"Salt" was a movie written for a male lead. When they cast Angelina Jolie and genderswapped it, they had to rewrite the ending because if a wife saved her husband, he would be too emasculated, and it would ruin the movie. 

The system of institutionalized sexism is all around, it affects both sexes, and it's not at all hard to see. 

The examples you use aren't exactly adult movies are they. Ripley from the Alien films is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Adult films for adults, not teenage guff.

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TheBoost said:

There's no hidden agenda. You're right. The agenda is plain to see and obvious.

Very nice.  I just wanted to clarify what I said in my last post because of this because I agree with you.  What I meant when I said there isn't an agenda, or whatever the hell I said, I'm too lazy to quote myself after I've already quoted you, is that there isn't a magic agenda or ruling that inherently makes something for males, for females, or for both.  It's just somebody saying it is, and that's just not a compelling enough argument for me.  And what I find fascinating about TheBoost's post is that it proves how cyclically entrenched people let it become.  Movie studio renames film because boys won't see a movie with the word "princess" in the title.  Boys won't see a film with the word "princess" in the title because films like that are only marketed towards girls, therefore they're only for girls.  And the cycle continues and becomes even more deeply entrenched...

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Hey, it's me. said:

TheBoost said:

 

The examples you use aren't exactly adult movies are they. Ripley from the Alien films is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Adult films for adults, not teenage guff.

Not totally sure what your point is. That we force gender roles on children through the media, but that all magically vanished when we're old enough to watch "Alien"? 

And you consider "Sex and the City" a kids film? Remind me not to let you watch my kids :)

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Gaffer Tape said:  unless you're saying there is some biological predisposition that justifies women in the past not getting an education, the right the vote, the opportunity to hold careers, etc. 

no, definitely not.

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What I'm trying to convey is that not every character conforms to the sexist stereotype your alluding to. If you grow up and mature into an adult and are convinced through so called brainwashing as a child that women are weak and only care about flowers and shit then your a weak minded fool. Women are mentally and emotionally stronger than men are and that is a widely held belief in the UK. So bearing THAT in mind, what are you trying to say? 

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Aaaand I'd say we're off the rails now.  How did we get here?

There is no lingerie in space…

C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.

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Gaffer Tape said:

 What I meant when I said there isn't an agenda, or whatever the hell I said, I'm too lazy to quote myself after I've already quoted you, is that there isn't a magic agenda or ruling that inherently makes something for males, for females, or for both.  It's just somebody saying it is, and that's just not a compelling enough argument for me.  And what I find fascinating about TheBoost's post is that it proves how cyclically entrenched people let it become.  Movie studio renames film because boys won't see a movie with the word "princess" in the title.  Boys won't see a film with the word "princess" in the title because films like that are only marketed towards girls, therefore they're only for girls.  And the cycle continues and becomes even more deeply entrenched...

Do you really think the only reason that more women like Sex In The City and more men like Die Hard is because of how they are marketed?   That is action movies were marketed for women, more women than men would like them and if Romance movies were marketed for men, that more men than women would like them? Somehow, I don't think so.   

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Gaffer Tape said: I feel a lot of it is socially implemented and constructed, and you've actually admitted to that.

where?