twister111 said:
Hey, it's me. said:
I can't see skirts ever becoming unisex attire. Hairy legs do not suit skirts and men haven't got hour glass figures.
So what about a girl who's figure isn't skinny? Or another girl who is but refuses to shave her legs? Would you also be against them wearing skirts?
I would hope a women that refuses to shave her legs would were a dress long enough to cover the legs.
Hair on a women's legs just doesn't look right.
Honestly how anyone could be critical of the crazy edicts of Mullahs and hold some of these views boggles my mind.
CP3S said:
Warbler said:
Hey, it's me. said: There a forms of attire that are specifically related and designed for the sexes. And skirts, along with high heels and blouses etc are for women. Just the way it is. Somethings will never change...lol :-D (love that tune)
this ^ a thousand times over.
I'm going to suggest a new tune here, a much older and more timeless tune. Bob Dylan's Times They Are A-changin'.
Everything changes. We used to wear very different clothes than we do now. Just 100 years ago we wore very different clothes than we do now. Just 200 years ago we wore very different clothes than we did now and 100 years ago. Men wearing wigs, makeup, and high heels was once in some places the equivalent of a tuxedo.
but this is not 100 or 200 year ago, it is now. I have never be all that much of a fan of change. I say only change when there is a good reason to.
Warbler said:
twister111 said:
Hey, it's me. said:
I can't see skirts ever becoming unisex attire. Hairy legs do not suit skirts and men haven't got hour glass figures.
So what about a girl who's figure isn't skinny? Or another girl who is but refuses to shave her legs? Would you also be against them wearing skirts?
I would hope a women that refuses to shave her legs would were a dress long enough to cover the legs.
Hair on a women's legs just doesn't look right.
But God put it there.
All things furry and hairy, the Lord God made them all ...
Warbler said:
but this is not 100 or 200 year ago, it is now. I have never be all that much of a fan of change. I say only change when there is a good reason to.
my pants itch.
Things haven't changed.
Men have always worn clothes more commonly worn by women
and women have always worn clothes more commonly worn by men
.
There is no reason I can see to change that or even care about it.
It's just clothes.
Leonardo said:
Warbler said:
twister111 said:
Hey, it's me. said:
I can't see skirts ever becoming unisex attire. Hairy legs do not suit skirts and men haven't got hour glass figures.
So what about a girl who's figure isn't skinny? Or another girl who is but refuses to shave her legs? Would you also be against them wearing skirts?
I would hope a women that refuses to shave her legs would were a dress long enough to cover the legs.
Hair on a women's legs just doesn't look right.
But God put it there.
God also put hair on my face, yet I see no reason not to shave it off.
Leonardo said:
Warbler said:
but this is not 100 or 200 year ago, it is now. I have never be all that much of a fan of change. I say only change when there is a good reason to.
my pants itch.
*sigh*
Warbler said:
I would hope a women that refuses to shave her legs would were a dress long enough to cover the legs.
Hair on a women's legs just doesn't look right.
Well, women weren't put here to appear in a way that you think is right or pleasing... although, sadly, a lot of women seem to think so.
There is no lingerie in space…
C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.
Warbler said:
Leonardo said:
Warbler said:
twister111 said:
Hey, it's me. said:
I can't see skirts ever becoming unisex attire. Hairy legs do not suit skirts and men haven't got hour glass figures.
So what about a girl who's figure isn't skinny? Or another girl who is but refuses to shave her legs? Would you also be against them wearing skirts?
I would hope a women that refuses to shave her legs would were a dress long enough to cover the legs.
Hair on a women's legs just doesn't look right.
But God put it there.
God also put hair on my face, yet I see no reason not to shave it off.
I cannot wrap my brain around this statement.
Warbler said:
God also put hair on my balls, yet I see no reason not to shave it off.
manscaping ;)
TV's Frink said:
Warbler said:
Leonardo said:
Warbler said:
twister111 said:
Hey, it's me. said:
I can't see skirts ever becoming unisex attire. Hairy legs do not suit skirts and men haven't got hour glass figures.
So what about a girl who's figure isn't skinny? Or another girl who is but refuses to shave her legs? Would you also be against them wearing skirts?
I would hope a women that refuses to shave her legs would were a dress long enough to cover the legs.
Hair on a women's legs just doesn't look right.
But God put it there.
God also put hair on my face, yet I see no reason not to shave it off.
I cannot wrap my brain around this statement.
Not sure if serious.
Nah, I'm with you. I don't get it.
As for hair on girls legs, I knew a girl who didn't shave. It was intriguing. If a girl had more hair on her legs than me, that would be undesirable. An informal poll of females I know shows dislike of men's underarm hair, that it's weird.
The blue elephant in the room.
Gaffer Tape said:
Warbler said:
I would hope a women that refuses to shave her legs would were a dress long enough to cover the legs.
Hair on a women's legs just doesn't look right.
Well, women weren't put here to appear in a way that you think is right or pleasing... although, sadly, a lot of women seem to think so.
this is true.
Mrebo said:
TV's Frink said:
Warbler said:
Leonardo said:
Warbler said:
twister111 said:
Hey, it's me. said:
I can't see skirts ever becoming unisex attire. Hairy legs do not suit skirts and men haven't got hour glass figures.
So what about a girl who's figure isn't skinny? Or another girl who is but refuses to shave her legs? Would you also be against them wearing skirts?
I would hope a women that refuses to shave her legs would were a dress long enough to cover the legs.
Hair on a women's legs just doesn't look right.
But God put it there.
God also put hair on my face, yet I see no reason not to shave it off.
I cannot wrap my brain around this statement.
Not sure if serious.
Nah, I'm with you. I don't get it.
what is so difficult to understand about what I said?
Leonardo argued against women shaving their legs by saying that God put hair there. I countered that God also put hair on my face and yet I nothing wrong with shaving.
Warbler said:
Gaffer Tape said:
Warbler said:
you make one error: you assume that because you can't figure out any good reason for not doing something, that no reason exists.
And you make one error: you assume that I assume that. ;-)
but you do, that is why you wear dresses. You can't figure out a good reason why men shouldn't wear dresses, you assume there isn't one, then you put a dress on.
No. I put a dress on because I want to wear a dress. I like it. It's comfortable. I think it's pretty. And considering those reasons, as far as I'm concerned, it's not an assumption there isn't a good reason. It's a fact!
And, again, Warb, learn the difference between a skirt and a dress. They are not two words to be used interchangeably. They are two entirely different things, and not in the sense of a skirt and a kilt or jeans and khakis.
Ahem. Now that that's out of the way.
I seem to have missed quite a bit of this thread while I was at work today. I was quite pleased to see the topic has continued so passionately, and it's nice that Warb apparently has more people to balance out his side, but I have to say that Hey, It's Me is approaching this topic so aggressively like he has some kind of personal vendetta against it, and I admit it's becoming a bit uncomfortable for me to read his posts. And that's not in the sense that his expressing a dissenting viewpoint is uncomfortable, but that the way he's expressing it is beginning to feel almost like a personal attack, and it makes me feel uncomfortable. That's not to say I can't handle it. If I can handle my mother regularly telling me I'm a disgrace and embarrassment to the family, then I can certainly handle an anonymous person on the Internet implying it. :-)
One point he did make, though, that I do agree with is the notion of clothes not defining who a person is. Hell, I agree with that entirely, and it was actually a part of the epiphany I related last night. Clothing and fashion are an artform and a means of personal expression. That people routinely and systematically judge others on their clothing choices, that fashion indeed has so many "rules," is asinine and really angers me. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if we all went starkers, and I love John Lennon's quote from his "bagism" philosophy: "If everyone went in a bag for a job there'd be no prejudice: you'd have to judge people on their quality within." I completely agree with that. To judge and evaluate someone on their clothing choices... well, it ties back into that simplicity argument. It's much easier to create an outward standard, something you can just look at and assign a value to, rather than having to actually THINK about anything. As far as I'm concerned, judging someone on a job interview by their clothing is analogous to hiring or not hiring someone based on what their favorite movie is or what kind of paintings they have in their house. And so part of my reason to not give a crap what arbitrary gender assignment goes with clothing was my realization that the "rules" of fashion are, again, just something somebody made up. I refuse to be defined by my clothes, or to let my clothes define me.
Also, I don't know if you know this, but it's not always easy to go out in public breaking social norms. That's why most people, and I'm just going to go ahead and say this, don't have the courage to do so. And believe me, I'm not just saying that. I told you I have so many stories about things that have happened to me while engaging in gender nonconformist behavior. To my surprise, one of the most common reactions I got were from men saying, and I quote, "Man, that's awesome! I wish I had the balls to do that!" And just to let that point really sink in, let me inform you that I was in MISSISSIPPI! But, yes, it takes courage. There are a lot of positive reactions, but you are usually very aware of the negative ones as well. You know people are constantly looking at you, and sometimes that's easier to deal with than others. But here's something about me: while I was a very extroverted child, when I entered middle school and was hit with the slings and arrows of adolescent behavior, I became very self-conscious, very aware of the possibilities of judgment, and very eager to do everything in my power to not do anything that could possibly get me made fun of by anyone at any time. And as a result, I didn't take any chances. I couldn't step out of my comfort zone. I never got anything done. I was too afraid of failure. Too afraid of what other people would think. So another reason I chose not to conform to gender norms is because it forced me to not be that person anymore. It forced me to increase my level of my confidence and learn not to give a shit what other people thought of me. Because you have to. I have learned from personal experience that if you step outside in a skirt or dress and look ashamed or embarrassed or fidgety, people are going to tear you apart. But if you do it with your head held high and never let them even think there's anything out of the ordinary, people are going to respect you.
There is no lingerie in space…
C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.
I worry about such attitudes.
If someone places such importance in body conformity that they go so far as to suggest women with visible hair on their legs wear long skirts, God only knows the opinion they have on their own body shape and how it effects their own life options.
And nobody wants to get on the wrong side of Ladyferry.
Warbler said:
twister111 said:
Hey, it's me. said:
I can't see skirts ever becoming unisex attire. Hairy legs do not suit skirts and men haven't got hour glass figures.
So what about a girl who's figure isn't skinny? Or another girl who is but refuses to shave her legs? Would you also be against them wearing skirts?
I would hope a women that refuses to shave her legs would were a dress long enough to cover the legs.
Hair on a women's legs just doesn't look right.
Aaaannnd, we're back on topic! Which is cool, because I have long been proud to be a feminist, and was a little disappointed that actual topic didn't make it passed the first few posts of the thread. (But the direction that we veered off in was equally interesting discussion).
The convention that women should be virtually hairless is silly and it is a bit of an oppressive requirement, You must spent X amount of time purging your body of its natural hair, otherwise you are just gross.
I actually know a few women who do not shave their legs or arm pits. As someone else said, it is kind of intriguing. While I am conditioned to like silky smooth hairless women's bodies as much as the next guy, I find myself kind of attracted to the woman who doesn't shave. Nonconformity to silly conventions that have been in place since times when women were much less respected and valued as individuals is kind of sexy to me.
Warbler compared women shaving their bodies to men shaving their faces, but men have the option. I have a beard, and while some women love my beard, others hate it. But nobody thinks it is gross, disgusting, and shudders or gags when they think of men with facial hair, while these reactions seem to be pretty standard when the topic of hairy legged women or women with unshaved underarms comes up. That is a lot of pressure rammed into a girl from a young age, and it is really sad; if you don't do this, nobody will ever love you or find you desirable.
Makeup fits under much the same category. My ex-wife rarely wore makeup, and when she did it was barely a noticeable amount. She had clear skin and a good complexion, was very pretty, and looked perfectly fine without it. She graduated university and went into the job market of the business suit wearing world of economics and finance (and yes, she is probably making several times my annual income these days). Even though she looked perfectly fine and blemish free without makeup, even though she was in the modern pant suit wearing business world, her career adviser at her university suggested if she wanted to do well in her career, she had better start using makeup. Apparently, when it comes to women, painting your face is a sign that you take care of yourself, regardless of how nice your hair and clothes look and how well groomed you are, no makeup on a women equals slob.
If women want to purge their bodies of hair, or paint their faces, then more power to them. But it bothers me that social expectations say they must otherwise they are unattractive, unwomanly, unemployable, and unpleasant.
Aaaand the above post could have been written by me because I agree with every single word of it, and it drives me crazy on a regular basis. And I hope one day I manage to find a woman who is strong and independent enough that she doesn't feel compelled to shave her legs or wear makeup (especially makeup... the idea that a woman must cover up her own face to be attractive is so depressing to me, and yet it's almost never brought up when discussing the problem of women's low self image). Like CP3S, I find such individualism and refusal to follow silly conventions very sexy.
There is no lingerie in space…
C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.
Gaffer Tape said:
the idea that a woman must cover up her own face to be attractive is so depressing to me
Damn, I wish I had used those exact words somewhere in my post. That about sums it up perfectly.
Sorry, but I just can't help help it, hair just doesn't look right to me on a woman's legs. Of course, it should not be illegal or anything of the like, for a woman to not shave her legs. But there is no way I could find it attractive or sexy, I just can't. Sorry if that means I am a sexist pig.
CP3S said:
Gaffer Tape said:
the idea that a woman must cover up her own face to be attractive is so depressing to me
Damn, I wish I had used those exact words somewhere in my post. That about sums it up perfectly.
I think if a woman using enough makeup to be "covering up her face", she is probably using way too much makeup.
You don't know how "foundation" works, do you, Warb?
There is no lingerie in space…
C3PX said: Gaffer is like that hot girl in high school that you think you have a chance with even though she is way out of your league because she is sweet and not a stuck up bitch who pretends you don’t exist… then one day you spot her making out with some skinny twerp, only on second glance you realize it is the goth girl who always sits in the back of class; at that moment it dawns on you why she is never seen hanging off the arm of any of the jocks… and you realize, damn, she really is unobtainable after all. Not that that is going to stop you from dreaming… Only in this case, Gaffer is actually a guy.
What I don't know about makeup, could fill Wikipedia.
Ask your mom Warb.
Ok I must apologise if my opinions have come across as being overly aggressive on this question (especially to Gaffer). I do agree with the make up point. Less is more in my eyes. And if a woman chooses not to shave her legs and armpits then good luck to them. I can only speak from experience from the relationships I've been in. And that is the women have opted themselves (without any harangument from me) to regularly shave their legs and armpits (plus other areas lol) basically because not that they feel they have to but because thy want to. It's what they like and it makes them feel feminine. One particular girl I was seeing a few years ago hardly ever wore make up at all, and when she did it was very minimal.