Star Wars prequels were mapped out in 1981, only nothing like the way they turned out — Page 4

What I find most interesting in this article is reading a G. Lucas having good point saying that Yoda does not fight because he's not really a Jedi but more a teacher, AND Kasdan answering that he does not like it (so basicaly Kasdan was okay for a Yoda fighting Vader scene in the prequels back then, and Lucas not). It's a bit of a shock to read.

Add to that the fact Leia losing her mother at 2 years old (makes sens in ROTJ context, but not in the actual PT's one) and the fact anyone can learn the ways of the Force (this does not "really" contradict the PT, but well, you better have good midichlorian's count if you want to be a powerful Jedi, all right) and you realize that Lucas knew very well what he was doing when he made the PT... and it was the complete opposite of what the younger Lucas wanted.

All I can suppose, if I still want to look at Lucas as an artist, is that when you think about making a piece of art for too long and stop thinking about it for some years, then when you come back to your first ideas... well, it's kind of boring of just using them as they always were. Know what I mean? Even if they made sens, even if they were the best: just using your 20 years old ideas is boring. You want to find new ones, I can understand that. It's either find new ideas or not making the movies. That's the only good excuse I can find for Lucas after reading this article.

TMBTM said:

What I find most interesting in this article is reading a G. Lucas having good point saying that Yoda does not fight because he's not really a Jedi but more a teacher, AND Kasdan answering that he does not like it (so basicaly Kasdan was okay for a Yoda fighting Vader scene in the prequels back then, and Lucas not). It's a bit of a shock to read.

Add to that the fact Leia losing her mother at 2 years old (makes sens in ROTJ context, but not in the actual PT's one) and the fact anyone can learn the ways of the Force (this does not "really" contradict the PT, but well, you better have good midichlorian's count if you want to be a powerful Jedi, all right) and you realize that Lucas knew very well what he was doing when he made the PT... and it was the complete opposite of what the younger Lucas wanted.

All I can suppose, if I still want to look at Lucas as an artist, is that when you think about making a piece of art for too long and stop thinking about it for some years, then when you come back to your first ideas... well, it's kind of boring of just using them as they always were. Know what I mean? Even if they made sens, even if they were the best: just using your 20 years old ideas is boring. You want to find new ones, I can understand that. It's either find new ideas or not making the movies. That's the only good excuse I can find for Lucas after reading this article.

In my ideal PT Yoda isn't even in it.

We are are obviously meant to be surprised by Yoda's appearance in ESB so the PT spoils the surprise.

Bingowings said:

In my ideal PT Yoda isn't even in it.

We are are obviously meant to be surprised by Yoda's appearance in ESB so the PT spoils the surprise.

I think that point depends if you watch the movies in chronological order or not. Me personally, 4-6 and then (begrudgingly) 1-3. And I would certainly propose to anyone who hasn't seen Star Wars to watch them in that order. As for Yoda, I was one of those people in the cinema who was saddened to see him bouncing of the walls and spinning around everywhere. 

Apologies for calling you an ignorant twat Bingowings btw. 

Darth Lucas said:

I like that you made the comparison to Harry Potter, Bingowings.  I actually think comparing it to wizards in Harry Potter perfectly explains it.  Magic is passed down as a hereditary thing, but there are also the muggle-borns who can use magic, but have no magical bloodline.  That's the way it is, but it's never explained in any more detail than that, and doesn't have to be.  I think the same kind of principles could be applied to force-users in Star Wars.  I would make some variations on it though.  Basically, here's how I see it:  Some individuals are born with a higher potential to manipulate the force.  This cannot be measured by any scientific means, but can be sensed by those whose minds are in tune with the force, however, anybody has the ability to manipulate the force with training, some are just born stronger with the force than others, thus have an easier time learning and are more likely to be more powerful.  This natural strength with the force is passed down through generations.  Ben's line "I was amazed how strongly the force was with him." perfectly fits in with this ideology.  The Skywalkers simply have a very high natural connection with the force.

The same could be said about any skills that people have, would it be a surprise that David Beckham's son had football skills etc

J

I wander if this sort of reveal will have any input in ady's version of PT...

Mithrandir said:

I wander if this sort of reveal will have any input in ady's version of PT...

 

I honestly like how things were fleshed out in this alternate past, as well as is revealed in the novels.  Obviously only so much can be done with existing material, but I hope Ady does his best to follow this as faithfully as possible.

imperialscum said:

Bingowings said:

In my ideal PT Yoda isn't even in it.

We are are obviously meant to be surprised by Yoda's appearance inESB so the PT spoils the surprise.

PT ruins a lot of things, even if it is watched in correct order (that is after OT).

In my opinion, the whole idea of direct prequels is stupid. When you watch OT your imagination makes a picture of what happened before (for example when Obi-Wan is telling Luke about the past). Then the prequels are going to compete with that imagination and people will be disappointed, naturally. Not to mention PT trying explain stuff from OT and ruining things (midichlorians crap etc.)

A distant prequel is far better idea (KOTOR game for example).

Jaitea said:

Darth Lucas said:

I like that you made the comparison to Harry Potter, Bingowings.  I actually think comparing it to wizards in Harry Potter perfectly explains it.  Magic is passed down as a hereditary thing, but there are also the muggle-borns who can use magic, but have no magical bloodline.  That's the way it is, but it's never explained in any more detail than that, and doesn't have to be.  I think the same kind of principles could be applied to force-users in Star Wars.  I would make some variations on it though.  Basically, here's how I see it:  Some individuals are born with a higher potential to manipulate the force.  This cannot be measured by any scientific means, but can be sensed by those whose minds are in tune with the force, however, anybody has the ability to manipulate the force with training, some are just born stronger with the force than others, thus have an easier time learning and are more likely to be more powerful.  This natural strength with the force is passed down through generations.  Ben's line "I was amazed how strongly the force was with him." perfectly fits in with this ideology.  The Skywalkers simply have a very high natural connection with the force.

The same could be said about any skills that people have, would it be a surprise that David Beckham's son had football skills etc

J

Star Wars came out around the same time as the Uri Geller thing.

It was very fashionable to believe that human beings had lost but could recover or were on their way to developing paranormal powers (ESP, spoon bending, levitation etc).

Uri was and is a fraud but it was an exciting deception for a while which percolated through popular culture.

Making it a lineage thing takes away some of the democracy of fantasy.

As for Beckham's son it would be understandable that he would develop the physique for the game and being surrounded by his father and his friends form the attitude and social networks to make a success of it.

It would be more odd to discover that the son of Beckham's secret long lost twin brother was a great football player.

Mithrandir said:

I wander if this sort of reveal will have any input in ady's version of PT...

 

Reveal? There was nothing revealed. Fans have known all of that stuff for as long as I can remember, and those things are part of what made the PT so very disappointing to us. It seemed like a really cool story, and we waiting so many years to see it, then it was nothing like we expected. Not being like we expected would have been totally fine, maybe even a really good thing, but it was done really poorly, and established continuity from the first films was ignored and forgotten.

The only part of it that was new to me was Lucas saying that Yoda doesn't fight. Between being a wise sage and making statements like "War does not make one great", I think most of us just assumed that he doesn't fight and that he'd just use the force to protect himself if it came down to it. It is nice to hear young George agree on this, though.

Mostly off topic, but an interesting somewhat related mention: There was an old animated chess game called Star Wars Chess, Yoda played the role of the white Rooks. Anytime one of the white Rooks/Yodas captured a piece, he'd use the force against them. For example, white bishop taking black pawn would be a Stormtrooper pointing his gun at Yoda, and Yoda waving his hand and saying, "Backwards is your gun" which caused the Stormtrooper to flip his gun around shoot himself instead of Yoda. To take out the black rooks, which were AT-ST's, Yoda would levitate it into the air and use the force to squeeze it into a ball, if I remember right. Hardly canonical, being a silly chess game for Star Wars fans, but I played it when I was fairly young and I think it went a ways into shaping my perception of how Yoda might go about a fight. I mean, when you have the ability to lift space ships out of swamps with just your mind, why use a stupid laser sword?

Something I've been thinking about for a while, and it's actually been suggested on this site once or twice before.  I really think a small band of OT members needs to get together, and write, produce, and edit our own version of the prequels.  Given the popularity of Kickstarter I don't think raising funds would be a problem, and given what I've seen on just this thread alone shows that we are more than capable of coming up with a much, much better story than what Lucas crapped out.

CP3S said:

Mithrandir said:

I wander if this sort of reveal will have any input in ady's version of PT...

 

Reveal? There was nothing revealed. Fans have known all of that stuff for as long as I can remember, and those things are part of what made the PT so very disappointing to us. It seemed like a really cool story, and we waiting so many years to see it, then it was nothing like we expected. Not being like we expected would have been totally fine, maybe even a really good thing, but it was done really poorly, and established continuity from the first films was ignored and forgotten.

The only part of it that was new to me was Lucas saying that Yoda doesn't fight. Between being a wise sage and making statements like "War does not make one great", I think most of us just assumed that he doesn't fight and that he'd just use the force to protect himself if it came down to it. It is nice to hear young George agree on this, though.

 

Mostly off topic, but an interesting somewhat related mention: There was an old animated chess game called Star Wars Chess, Yoda played the role of the white Rooks. Anytime one of the white Rooks/Yodas captured a piece, he'd use the force against them. For example, white bishop taking black pawn would be a Stormtrooper pointing his gun at Yoda, and Yoda waving his hand and saying, "Backwards is your gun" which caused the Stormtrooper to flip his gun around shoot himself instead of Yoda. To take out the black rooks, which were AT-ST's, Yoda would levitate it into the air and use the force to squeeze it into a ball, if I remember right. Hardly canonical, being a silly chess game for Star Wars fans, but I played it when I was fairly young and I think it went a ways into shaping my perception of how Yoda might go about a fight. I mean, when you have the ability to lift space ships out of swamps with just your mind, why use a stupid laser sword?

I never believed in Lucas when he said it all was planned. Even if there were things we knew previous to the PT, this document shows a rather high level of plot elaboration for that time. Which is surprising for me at least.

Based on this fact, that even while a lot was changed, some other structural elements of the plot have always been there, my concern was wether now ady's prequels will be "the closest possible to the 1981 prequels plot", or if he will keep his creative freedom when he approaches the trilogy.

Ofc, I've no dubt he will be taking some points of that story treatment, but those are the exact points he said he would be taking before this document came out:

yoda doesn't fight

continuity with ot

no midiclorians

However how important will this new information be for those elements that go beyond these basic pilars of his PT:R, which have always been part of his pov. 

Sorry gang, a bit late to the party here.  But, I also remember Anakin fighting Kenobi over a volcano, Anakin not knowing his wife was pregnant, Leia being a
princess because the Organas were Alderaanian royalty, etc.  

And, I just came across this -

http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Return-of-the-Jedi.html

I think it's the original script for RotJ.  Check scene 51.  Ben's ghost is talking to Luke on Dagobah, and he gives Luke some extended dialogue about Anakin, their fight, the Organas, etc.  Pretty cool and this is what I always thought as the back story for the OT.  Surprised when Lucas changed it all for the crummy prequels :(

And ... just in case the link doesn't work or you don't feel like scrolling through it all - here is Scene 51 from the script -

51   EXT DAGOBAH SWAMP - X-WING 

Luke wanders back to where his ship is sitting. Artoo beeps a greeting, 
but is ignored by his depressed master. Luke kneels down, begins to 
help Artoo with the ship, then stops and shakes his head dejectedly.

LUKE
I can't do it, Artoo. I can't go on alone.

BEN	 (OS)
Yoda will always be with you.

Luke looks up to see the shimmering image of BEN KENOBI.

LUKE
Obi-Wan! Why didn't you tell me?

The ghost of Ben Kenobi approaches him through the swamp.

LUKE
You told me Vader betrayed and murdered my father.

BEN
You father was seduced by the dark side of the Force. He ceased to be 
Anakin Skywalker
and became Darth Vader. When that happened, the good man who was your 
father was destroyed. So what I have told you was true... from a 
certain point of view.

LUKE	 (turning away, derisive)
A certain point of view!

BEN
Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend 
greatly on our own
point of view.

Luke is unresponsive. Ben studies him in silence for a moment.

BEN
I don't blame you for being angry. If I was wrong in what I did, it 
certainly wouldn't have been for the first time. You see, what happened 
to your father was my fault.

Ben pauses sadly.

BEN
Anakin was a good friend.

Luke turns with interest at this. As Ben speaks, Luke settles on a 
stump, mesmerized. Artoo comes over to offer his comforting presence.

BEN
When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was 
amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to 
train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well 
as Yoda. I was wrong. My pride has had terrible consequences for the 
galaxy.

Luke is entranced.

LUKE
There's still good in him.

BEN
I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be 
done. He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.

LUKE
I can't do it, Ben.

BEN
You cannot escape your destiny.

LUKE
I tried to stop him once. I couldn't do it.

BEN
Vader humbled you when first you met him, Luke... but that experience 
was part of your training. It taught you, among other things, the value 
of patience. Had you not been so impatient to defeat Vader then, you 
could have finished your training here with Yoda. You would have been 
prepared.

LUKE
But I had to help my friends.

BEN	 (grinning at Luke's indignation)
And did you help them? It was they who had to save you. You achieved 
little by rushing back prematurely, I fear.

LUKE	 (with sadness)
I found out Darth Vader was my father.

BEN
To be a Jedi, Luke, you must confront and then go beyond the dark side 
- the side your father couldn't get past. Impatience is the easiest 
door - for you, like your father. Only, your father was seduced by what 
he found on the other side of the door, and you have held firm. You're 
no longer so reckless now, Luke. You are strong and patient. And now, 
you must face Darth Vader again!

LUKE
I can't kill my own father.

BEN
Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

LUKE
Yoda spoke of another.

BEN
The other he spoke of is your twin sister.

LUKE
But I have no sister.

BEN
Hmm. To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your 
father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did, if Anakin were 
to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the 
reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.

LUKE
Leia! Leia's my sister.

BEN
Your insight serves you well. Bury your feelings deep down, Luke. They 
do you credit.
But they could be made to serve the Emperor.

Luke looks into the distance, trying to comprehend all this.

BEN	 (continuing his narrative)
When your father left, he didn't know your mother was pregnant. Your 
mother and I knew he would find out eventually, but we wanted to keep 
you both as safe as possible, for as long as possible.  So I took you 
to live with my brother Owen on Tatooine... and your mother took Leia 
to live as the daughter of Senator Organa, on Alderaan.

Luke turns, and settles near Ben to hear the tale.

BEN	 (attempting to give solace with his words)
The Organa household was high-born and politically quite powerful in 
that system. Leia became a princess by virtue of lineage... no one knew 
she'd been adopted, of course. But it was a title without real power, 
since Alderaan had long been a democracy.  Even so, the family 
continued to be politically powerful, and Leia, following in her foster 
father's path, became a senator as well.  That's not all she became, of 
course... she became the leader of her cell in the Alliance against the 
corrupt Empire. And because she had diplomatic immunity, she was a 
vital link for getting information to the Rebel cause.  That's what she 
was doing when her path crossed yours... for her foster parents had 
always told her to contact me on Tatooine, if her troubles became 
desperate.

Luke is overwhelmed by the truth, and is suddenly protective of his 
sister.

LUKE
But you can't let her get involved now, Ben. Vader will destroy her.

BEN
She hasn't been trained in the ways of the Jedi the way you have, 
Luke... but the Force is strong with her, as it is with all of your 
family. There is no avoiding the battle. You must face and destroy 
Vader!

All I can do after reading this thread and article is to quote this .....  :)

REVENGE OF THE JEDI STORY CONFERENCE TRANSCRIPT, JULY 13 to JULY 17, 1981—SUMMARY
Participants: George Lucas, Richard Marquand, Lawrence Kasdan, and Howard Kazanjian
Location: Park Way House

Note: Many of the ideas here are conceptual only and should not be considered as canon in the Star Wars saga.

 

Despite the fact that Lucas defenders will claim this stuff isn't technically canon is really irrelevant.  (I mean, who really considers the prequels canon anyway?  Sheesh!)

Anyways, my point is, that canon or no, all of this stuff - the transcript published in Rinzler's book, the original RotJ script, etc. - all still points to the same thing. That the original tales of Anakin's downfall, his fight with Obi-wan, him not knowing of the pregnancy, Owen Lars being Kenobi's estranged brother - was the tale that Lucas and Kasdan and Kurtz built the Original Trilogy films upon.  It's obvious this is exactly what they thought the backstory was all along - and it came from the big Gungan mouth of old George Lucas the whole time.  Just cause he changes his mind in 1999 and starts revamping his original ideas doesn't make it any less true or any less obvious that it used to be this way. 

Not to mention, it fits perfectly with everything we've seen in the OT, and is also a much more compelling and interesting backdrop than the garbage Lucas crafted for the prequels IMHO.  

adywan said:

This is a really interesting excerpt from the upcoming "Making of Return of the Jedi" book.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/22/star-wars-prequels-return-of-the-jedi_n_3313793.html

Interesting to just how different his plans were back then. It also destroys the argument of the prequel fans that they were planned out that way all along ( i bet they're going to love that ;) ). 

So to summarise;

Yoda doesn't fight. He is more of a teacher.

NO MIDICHLORIANS

Jedi can love and marry.

ANYONE can learn to use the force if they are prepared to learn.

Luke & Leia's mother was still alive until they were 2 years old

So they would have originally fit in pretty well with the OT.

also,

The Empire ceases to exist at the end of ROTJ.

Palpatine is described as an ancient being who looks the way he does because he's using the dark side to make himself immortal.

I would like to point out that in this outline there is no mention of another apprentice for Obi-Wan, and it seems to be a big and obvious point that Anakin and Vader are the same. In other words, if the prequels were made then, they would not have kept the secret that Vader is Luke's father. In other words, there was never any intention to do so. In other words, the conception of the episode numbers meant that there would later be prequels to tell the backstory, not that there would be prequels to just start the story earlier. In other words, yeah, I'm making an argument about a popular fan edit idea.

Also, Palpatine wasn't a Sith.

skyjedi2005 said: you could be a force user and not be a Jedi, or a user of the dark side and not be a Sith Lord.

 I think it should have stayed that way. Why should you have to join those organizations to use The Force?

Tack said:

I really don't know the rules of the Star Wars universe.

I thought that was the way it always was, just that Jedi and Sith were formal kinds of training.

 You need an unusually high number of midichlorians to use The Force. Jedi and Sith are both organizations.