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Idea & Info: Cinerama 70mm '2001' preservation. Is it possible?

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 (Edited)

Ok, so here’s an idea I’ve tried to figure out for some time.

What if we took the current remastered HD 2001: A Space Odyssey master on the BD and tried to return it to something more akin to what played in 70mm Cinerama back in 1968?

The 6 track audio was put on the Criterion LD as Dolby Surround PCM, the later MGM LDs and was mixed into 5.1, and on the initial MGM DVD as 5.1. All of these have the original sound design intact with the correct dialog panning as intended. With what HH did on his 70mm SW mix, I think it’s definitely possible.

Then the color timing could be looked at, because the current SE DVD/BD and digital prints look different to the film as I have seen projected several times. In fact the prints look like all the old Criterion/MGM issues.

But perhaps most interesting of all, wouldn’t it be interesting to apply a Smilebox effect as was wonderfully used on the restored BD of How the West Was Won? This might finally give an idea of how impacting 2001 is theatrically. It was a single camera, single projector 70mm Cinerama film that was simply projected onto the famed deeply curved screen.

From the Kubrick site:

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If you’re a 2001 fan lucky enough to have a laser disc player, there are six disc versions the best of which come remarkably close to the theatrical experience. These versions are:

1. MGM Pan and Scan. Not worth it, for reasons expressed above.

2. Japanese letterbox CAV set, the first letterbox set available. I haven’t seen this, but reviews I’ve read indicate it falls far short of the later American transfers and isn’t worth having, it is probably costly as well.

3 & 4. CAV and CLV Criterion disc sets. CAV is 6 sides, including “specials” the CLV is 3 sides without specials. These sets both use the same transfer, done in 1988 by the Voyager companies’ legendary Maria Groumbos Palazzola. This was transferred from a 35mm “anamorphic” source (at the time of this transfer there was no 65mm/70mm telecine equipment in existence). The transfer was done in association with Full Metal Jacket’s editor, Martin Hunter and “dailies” of the transfer were sent to Stanley Kubrick in England. Kubrick faxed back comments and Palazzola has written that he required 6 runs through with changes before he would approve it. The transfer was “state of the art” for 1988, with good image detail, fairly low grain and good fidelity to Kubrick’s detailed color scheme. Even today the Criterion transfer is worthwhile viewing and no version – except the as-yet-unreleased (although broadcast) digital transfer from a new print supervised by Kubrick, using new technologies – captures the deep black of Kubrick’s space scenes as well. Unfortunately, in order to keep this deep black, many of the stars visible in the theatre simply cannot be seen, lessening the impression that the spacecraft are moving against the background. The sound was transferred from a 6 track magnetic master into the Dolby Surround format, and is as good as one could hope, adding greatly to the “you are there” feel which the small screen presentation cannot capture visually. Thankfully the film is presented with the overture and entr’acte music (short excerpts of Ligeti’s Atmospheres) and an extended playing of The Blue Danube at the end as “walk out” music. Following Criterion’s practice these are presented over a black screen.

The aspect ratio of this transfer is approximately 2.21:1, which is the 70mm aspect ratio, but this is misleading. This is because the transfer was taken from a 35mm “scope format” interpositive which was presented at 2.35:1 in the theatre (resulting in a strip being lost from the 70mm image in the theatrical presentation). When transferred to video, at 2.21:1 the sides of the 2.35:1 35mm image are also slightly compromised. Nothing important is missing from this version, but there is a small amount of image missing from the top, bottom, and sides of the original picture. The result is actually a slightly larger image than would have appeared otherwise.

5 MGM CLV “budget” transfer 3 sides. This is the first transfer of 2001 done from the original 65mm film, and the entire image, including the parts not visible in the Criterion is visible. The sound is equal to that in the Criterion. Reportedly Turner had a great deal of trouble with a “too red” oversaturated look and had to re transfer the film to get this result. Even so the color leaves much to be desired, and the prevalence of earth tones look very little like Kubrick’s color scheme. The transfer also varies in brightness from shot to shot making this, in my view, the worst version of the film, short of the pan and scans. The film is presented with amusingly inappropriate chapter titles, the funniest of which is “Beating the Bone”.

6. MGM CAV 25th Anniversary CAV box set, 6 sides. This is reportedly the same film to tape transfer as the CLV version, but it has been meticulously color corrected shot by shot before being mastered for laser disc. The result is the best video version, in my view, full of detail, low grain, with all of the stars visible and with the entire aspect ratio of the original 70mm presentation. Possibly this version does not capture the black of the space shots or Kurick’s color scheme quite as well as the Criterion, but it comes quite close. Both of the MGM versions have the overture, entr’acte and walk out music, but place intrusive titles on the screen presumably so we won’t think our TVs have broken (the CAV version has a more dignified looking title). Thankfully the 25th Anniversary CAV has re named the chapters “Beating the Bone” for example, is “The Evolution of Man”. Unfortunately the closing titles of the film are placed on a different side from the end of the movie itself, so that we miss out on the intentional contrast between the powerful final strains of Zarathustra and the “post climactic” (and humorous) Blue Danube.

This misses the 7th LD edition, an MGM CLV with Dolby ac3 5.1.

Thoughts?

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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Would be interesting to see key sequences would look like in smilebox.

I was pondering a preservation of the Criterion extras, and other bits from the later LD's that never got ported over. (The Arthur C. Clarke lecture did make it onto the early non anamorphic DVD release, IIRC.) I own nearly all of the editions mentioned.

The extensive Criterion CAV text and still galleries pose a problem in how to properly present them on a non LD format.

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Where were you in '77?

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So you're talking about restoring the color-timing to that of the original roadshow presentations, not restoring the longer version that Kubrick cut down just prior to release? My understanding is all of that footage was destroyed.

 

I remember the MGM remaster with the AC-3 track… is that the same mix that was on the DVD and Blu-ray?

“That’s impossible, even for a computer!”

“You don't do ‘Star Wars’ in Dobly.”

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Intriguing. Never knew that the BD timing was so greatly off... Though it's not particularly surprising. Hope this project comes to fruition.

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 (Edited)

This definitely sounds like an interesting project.

The first step would be to do an excellent preservation of the MGM CAV 25th Anniversary Box Set.

Colortiming can be corrected on a shot-by-shot basis using a two-step method:

1  Rough: shot-by-shot using g-force's RGBMatch Avisynth function.

2. Final: shot-by-shot using the skills and eyes of an experienced colorist.

The first step gets you pretty close, but the second is necessary to deal with potential problems arising from the first.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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Has anyone seen the film in 70mm?

I'm not sure as to how the timing was done. All prints I've seen look like the old editions, and the MGM LD had to be corrected to match the Criterion. The initial widescreen MGM Laser looks quite dull.

I don't think the new timing is wrong by any means, it comes from a better scan of higher generation materials. Yet it doesn't quite resemble theatrical.

Take a peek here at the MGM DVD shots. http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReview/2001.htm

It's a very subtle difference overall, almost giving a feeling of a baked appearance. This is a over sharpened DVD of the CAV set they did, but you get the idea. On film, 2001 looks like this but with the far greater detail and clarity found on the BD. All that really needs to be done I think is some general tweaking here and there perhaps to mimic printing processes of the time.

On the audio, the 5.1 should work just fine as it is supposedly the same original track. The new 5.1 mix is very good and shouldn't be jettisoned but loses the original sound design with directional dialogue panning meant to go across all five front channels. It really sounds different spatially to the original mix,especially when I've A/B ed with the Criterion PCM. Perhaps a hybrid track is in order where we could take the matrixed surround and combine it with the LFE channel?

The big issue is Smilebox; how to do it correctly, how to properly distort the image to create that sense of true depth, and also not infringe upon any rights because I'm pretty sure the process is copyrighted. Plus this isn't three strip Cinerama, but the more common single strip version where it was only projected onto the curvature instead of being technically designed for it.

BTW it's pretty much understood that the nearly 20 minutes of 2001 footage found in the WB underground vault in Kansas is the 12-20 minutes Stanley originally cut after the initial premieres. And of course in addition to killing Douglas Trumbull's innovative documentary, WB is sitting on absolutely priceless materials. And if someone is doing similarly with the original lost Strangelove ending (which there is evidence of!) I will find you and give you a cream pie. ;)

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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Weren't the effects done in 65mm?  How high did they scan for the BD.

“Always loved Vader’s wordless self sacrifice. Another shitty, clueless, revision like Greedo and young Anakin’s ghost. What a fucking shame.” -Simon Pegg.

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Smilebox just looks like fisheye distortion to me. How is it different?

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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captainsolo said:

I will find you and give you a cream pie. ;)

Wow... where's TV's Frink when you need him?!

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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TV's Frink said:

Who am I, Beetlejuice?

Yes.

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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 (Edited)

2001: A Space Odyssey ...

in the theater ...

[edit]
Above was made by a simple pincushion warp -- quick but inaccurate.

Below was made by a (manually) graduated horizontal compression, from
center to edges, and then the pincushion -- more accurate.

is interesting. Is popcorn aroma included?

.

Color correction will be needed, of course, because from 1999 ...

1999 DVD R1

to 2007 ...

2007 DVD R1

the moon ripened into green cheese.  :O

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SilverWook said:

I own nearly all of the editions mentioned.

captainsolo's referenced article is The Big Picture: 2001 on Video by Thomas E. Brown http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/doc/brown2.html.

The Criterion CAV 3-disc Laserdisc set (1989)
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/00997/CC1160L/2001:-A-Space-Odyssey:-Special-Edition-%281968%29
was from a 35mm scope print (due to lack of 65/70mm transfer equipment) with meticulous inspection and approval by Stanley Kubrick.

The MGM CAV 3-disc 25th Anniversary Laserdisc set (1993)
http://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/04985/ML103104/2001:-A-Space-Odyssey:-25th-Anniversary-%281968%29
was from the original 65mm film, via film-to-tape, with shot-by-shot color correction (to "fix" problems like too dim to be seen stars, and brightness variations) but not in complete accord with Kubrick's color scheme.

It looks like the best color reference would be the Criterion set, but the best detail would be the later MGM set.
For best color fidelity on DVD, can we (meaning you) determine if the Criterion source was used (if at all) for the non-restored DVD releases (1998, and again in 1999 with new DD5.1 audio)?

        1998 DVD R1                1999 DVD R1

 

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It will be a while before I can dig them all out, as my home repairs are dragging along at the moment. (And there's a ton of stuff blocking access.) 

I don't think there is much difference between the '98 and '99 DVD's, as Warner's was mostly reissuing the MGM films under their banner at the time. I have the MGM DVD and the later "remastered" Warner disc.

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Where were you in '77?

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That's great! ... whenever you can.

Like with Star Wars' laserdisc / DVD bonus disc -- if that Criterion CAV laserdisc source was used for one or both of the non-restored DVDs, then that might be a better and more convenient place to start such a project.

The '99 Warner DVD heralds the audio (nothing for video) under "special features": SOUNDTRACK REMASTERED IN DOLBY DIGITAL 5.1.

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Those links look good -- there goes yet another evening for research! :)

I came across treasure trove of "on the set" 2001 photos some time back ... the LIFE magazine archives hosted by Google:
http://images.google.com/hosted/life
Searching for "2001 a space odyssey" and "stanley kubrick" should bring up everything (in case their tagging hides related shots). This also may be helpful for verifying colors -- keeping in mind that old film (from any source) is still old film.

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I really need to catch the Kubrick exhibit while it's still in L.A.

Maybe someone on here in the U.K can visit the SK archive and do some research one of these days. ;)

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Where were you in '77?

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Wow, thanks for the interest guys, this is the kinda stuff that's been floating around my head for a while.

The MGM and Warner should be identical with the 5.1 track from the last MGM LD release. They had planned a DTS LD which sadly was canceled in the last days of LD.

What I'm wondering is what about the 2001 corrected Warner DVD, which should be in between the MGM first disc and the new digital master. I've got this one and will give a spin through and spot check some things.

The MGM CLV is indeed not color accurate, it looks pitiful compared against the Criterion and as if the colorist simply went to sleep. The audio is the same and may be a bit cleaner (I'm only guessing as the Criterion was great except for 4-5 very minor spots of distortion/damage for the whole feature)

VADER!? WHERE THE HELL IS MY MOCHA LATTE? -Palpy on a very bad day.
“George didn’t think there was any future in dead Han toys.”-Harrison Ford
YT channel:
https://www.youtube.com/c/DamnFoolIdealisticCrusader

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A few more interesting things:

DVDBeaver has a review/comparison of 2001: A Space Odyssey with lots of picture comparisons. Among the releases are the MGM 1998 DVD (supposed to be mostly identical to the Warner 1999 DVD) and the Warner 2001 "remastered" DVD.
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReview/2001.htm

The Digital Bits also has a comparative review of the three DVDs in question -- 1998, 1999, 2001 -- but it is not comprehensive.
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/site_archive/reviews/2001.html

The real question is ... which of these DVDs, if any, correspond to the Criterion CAV 3-disc Laserdisc set (1989) or the MGM CAV 3-disc 25th Anniversary Laserdisc set (1993), as regards coloring and detail, respectively.

 

And did you know that the recent PBS-aired TV special The Beatles' Magical Mystery Tour, of untold ages ago, included out-takes from 2001 as background to one of their songs?
 
So alleges h2g2 - '2001: A Space Odyssey' - the Film
http://www.h2g2.com/approved_entry/A533413
under it's Did You Know...? section.

"Alleges" because if one thinks of the obstacles of Stanley Kubrick and copyright laws, it doesn't seem likely, even for The Beatles. (More likely is similar footage re-colored in kind.)

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According to this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_Mystery_Tour_%28film%29

It's footage originally shot for Dr. Strangelove. This is plausible considering the unused aerial shots from The Shining used for the "happy ending" version of Blade Runner. (There was an old story long since debunked that Strangelove footage was used in 2001.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbKSr3vb32U

Someone should really do a fan edit where Deckard and Rachel end up at The Overlook. ;)

Since MMT came out the year before 2001, I think it's unlikely they got any footage from the cutting room floor. MMT was entirely shot on 16mm, and any discarded 2001 footage would have been 65mm.

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Where were you in '77?

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captainsolo said:

The big issue is Smilebox; how to do it correctly, how to properly distort the image to create that sense of true depth, and also not infringe upon any rights because I'm pretty sure the process is copyrighted.

Smilebox is just a geometric distortion ... and simple math is not copyrightable (or patentable). So no need to worry on that angle.

To do such math, however, get a number from WidescreenMuseum's CINERAMA SPECIFICATION SHEET:
http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/widescreen/cinerama_specs.htm
specifically, 146°, the slice of circular screen one would see as the theatre patron.

The rest is the viewer's distance from the screen and vertical seat position (good Cinerama theaters have stadium seating).

If math isn't big on your resume, just eye-ball it with some imagination. As you would probably use Avisynth to process the video, the Doom 9 forum has a start of what to try:
How to curve distort an entire Cinerama DVD image (Convert Letterbox to Smilebox)?
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=141190
The suggested plug-ins ("perspective", "debarrel", and "grid") in that 2008 thread should produce the same result(s) as my paint-program proof-of-concept.

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How's this, guys? DeFish with an fov of 84°.

Sample 2

Sample 1

A picture is worth a thousand words. Post 102 is worth more.

I’m late to the party, but I think this is the best song. Enjoy!

—Teams Jetrell Fo 1, Jetrell Fo 2, and Jetrell Fo 3

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I'd watch Star Wars like that!  It'd make me think I was at the Dome in Hollywood.

A Goon in a Gaggle of 'em